From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCLtsPeBBoEcy0i_g@googlegroups.com Thu Apr 22 16:26:29 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O55mq-0005fm-N6; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 16:26:29 -0700 Received: by gwj18 with SMTP id 18sf3125695gwj.16 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 16:26:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=NyLcX/CKA4uRo9GuHX8vSBWUlAurNjKu+wHgylO01EY=; b=d+RQl/dE3GY+hj/Ybmg+ptvz6dm/xLl7Kl11ikeTSn/K4dU1catV0soiSM6RdCl28V sQguEmsV+b0b1xhtwlv9Ca9G0mNnE4N9CkwejmLdTCo/KyLRCqx67hmBsrqje4L/90A5 V+c2Ul77QryfwX1OAY501YCvTK3J5ieWxZwbQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=WlvxZu2V+7wYluVkXDEoaB/6ajGNegHOeLQu2PRk7XzrEDl1FDXqmOh11iMOWvFGG7 JO6GUiqQ8WS9QvtbGykKhYtJF0/HoEdzFVd6A96PDTDZU4elP8qghBIsRj391lrpMaq6 x4x6AcfCZvWA8UVGemIL9TkoNh3ywVD1vai0o= Received: by 10.100.244.5 with SMTP id r5mr1102628anh.72.1271978763046; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 16:26:03 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.168.36 with SMTP id v36ls25045382ano.4.p; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 16:26:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.137.23 with SMTP id p23mr7749825ann.36.1271978762280; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 16:26:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.137.23 with SMTP id p23mr7749824ann.36.1271978762257; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 16:26:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.121]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id 17si781084anx.2.2010.04.22.16.26.01; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 16:26:01 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.121 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.121; Received: (qmail 5247 invoked by uid 60001); 22 Apr 2010 23:26:00 -0000 Message-ID: <822558.3911.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: _c4S29cVM1lc7IDY0.IZoeKGHgu6WjpHuaD3OZbbYD428gC fXvjOYgHMvHGBbBgYXWXo0Qyf3_mepnvm0La1BGpUknZbHvLk58IuJi8ANFo yeIvjnZ08dNwtErODVo42Qn3fMxyJbl5IEL7IdK71pj4Ciypmz3yGf.cpryJ JtsR0N8kkZfegs4EZXSAK2lu81bqRY5M7HNjZ6a2gKQNRnLRwzsATaxzU7XD h7Qrt8aN3lINQG64TdKrGJv.UFiqajUIygoOsX2KzKnZXbG.QuaGh00Qweb6 bXUm8jAkGr298s_kd0r339_HoGhBrFk4StI95DQ6W9YCflxk24luFqzzSGSI p8pBUZAfaeg-- Received: from [71.14.73.129] by web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 16:26:00 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/348.5 YahooMailWebService/0.8.102.267879 References: <6a2c862a-91f0-452e-9a31-0064620d5d06@g11g2000yqe.googlegroups.com> <391970.26672.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <225049.90411.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <734238.40743.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4BD060B7.5020903@gmail.com> <402483.50291.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 16:26:00 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] About plural 'ro' To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.121 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Thu, April 22, 2010 5:00:00 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] About plural 'ro' On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 1:26 PM, John E Clifford wro= te: > To take a case in point 'lo bevri be lo plano' (where did we get that wor= d?) It's "lo pipno", BTW. Or maybe you meant "lo plana": "the fat one". [Yeah. I remember the 70's better than the 80' or 90's] > refers to several things or a bunch. Now the things, which must be thing= s that carry a piano, turn out in the hypothetical case we are looking at, = to be pluralities or bunches (it takes at least three of the five participa= nts to carry the piano). So, then, what satisfies 'me lo bevri be lo plano'= ? What is obviously there are the sixteen groups, whether bunches or just = pluralities, of three or more participants. xorxes apparently is claiming = that the right answer is just the three participants themselves, Indeed. Three, four or five, depending on the occasion. {Typo, I meant 'five' of course] > in spite of the fact that they don't satisfy the defining predicate. But they do. Together. Each of them doesn't. Together, they do. {See how the case develops.] > I suppose > you could claim that, since each of these groups satisfies the predicate= , then the things that satisfy the predicate is the union of these, which w= ould, in fact reduce the group of participants. But this looks perilous: t= hough I can't come up with a good case where it is clearly wrong, I also ca= n't prove that it is correct. One attempt along this line might be to cons= ider that, while all the threesomes and foursomes actually carried the pian= o, the fivesome did not. The union would be the same, but the referent of = the term would again be a plurality that did not in fact meet the property = (and, in general, the fact that something unioned in has a property does no= t mean that the union does). , On the other hand, what xorxes pulls out is = the right thing for the case and the question then is, where did he get it. The referentS of the term (not the referent, because the term has more than one referent) vary from occasion to occasion of carrying. Just like John may have a beard one day and not the next, the carriers of the piano may be four at some point and three at some other point, and a different three at another. Or they may be five, who took turns in carrying the piano in such way that at no point were they all carrying it together. There is no need to encode all that precision in a poor little gadri. If you want to talk about the ones that were carriers at 10:25 a.m., then you will have to say "the carriers of the piano at 10:25 a.m.", we can't have an "all together" gadri, and a "one by one" gadri, and an "in groups of 3, 4 and 5" gadri and an "at 10:25 a.m." gadri. All that, when needed, has to be added by other means. [Okay, lets take the the people who carried today. There are 15 groups, ea= ch of them referents of the term. How do we get down from that to the five= people actually involved -- which five are not in fact referents of the te= rm, since they don't carry together. That is, though the referents at diffe= rent times today were different (not a problem), the question is about the = referent for today as a whole. We're not seeking added precision here, we= are just trying to get to the simplest case: the newspaper headline, for e= xample.] mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.