From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCPisfeBBoEW0Vr_Q@googlegroups.com Fri Apr 23 09:04:58 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O5LN6-0006VU-Ik; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 09:04:58 -0700 Received: by gwj18 with SMTP id 18sf3822388gwj.16 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 09:04:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=lDmtiewWhiyC7Wx6xAU8ghHbxE/a+GUl/0rP2IHKKQw=; b=qY0v/QF5DqaK5qwRAomrLurg4iweQcox3WIU4XY1+hqkj5FbysebAySp6vmFAVyFiS f4uFo2c/TeQfRaMm4vnW1rx5hSwHr4EnKDOWjlEIMqXlIMM04vm0NpqYqrIFf38lv9Bz Nem42Y0MUsA6P7wyFJrX7M4aIzUgV3I3N/2Pg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=aKhJ+BwmRRq+e5BOTIcNMuJh3cgkJuzaY8Gs925P4cUvGs35dB0BwHB48XywV6uaWZ 5a8H6/sFu7O+/eHB38pqD/WQ5ll4eA8sKmhSiowwm4Ol47tJs/zU5QLerpbzng/rCF84 RJDn35TUmSjbbEtcz7dXXUGD24vcktpWy8kYI= Received: by 10.150.250.3 with SMTP id x3mr67659ybh.75.1272038671213; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 09:04:31 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.91.93.10 with SMTP id v10ls32098167agl.3.p; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 09:04:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.42.40 with SMTP id p40mr134184agp.3.1272038669531; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 09:04:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.42.40 with SMTP id p40mr134183agp.3.1272038669400; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 09:04:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.120]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id 11si131544gxk.13.2010.04.23.09.04.28; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 09:04:28 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.120 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.120; Received: (qmail 41778 invoked by uid 60001); 23 Apr 2010 16:04:28 -0000 Message-ID: <910640.40103.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: 2QCCjuwVM1mNk4eJzy40Q1CVFxmLt634pUqeyW_8rT94oO7 K__mfud5S8tYVapEWtzcvk4pomZrMZzyL7X4uiIe69YHYe78WYVtnmuJeea5 0pmkHRd0zo.wbb.rpXbt8dbtdsfAPXCstAxHaWyBU9HjPYcABt1ztvVbTyDy s6btRiKgQR7Q9SuKmvPzUtWuoAWH.js0lcAerCai2lq_qWvPmEvwdZLDBSQv JOdkZ.OLo4jDN.VLbFv5VdyBRg02wbbragTEpEM2zpmMAg.HGQyJqjuDeKLJ MEQ8qwJBsVsFpjVjp7cHUSyqPrqsA5cv510PSOg1vQTc8emIzITVqg9nv Received: from [71.14.73.129] by web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 09:04:27 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/348.5 YahooMailWebService/0.8.102.267879 References: <4BBE188B.8070807@lojban.org> <20100409014708.GB11541@digitalkingdom.org> <4BBF197D.6080601@lojban.org> <20100409222518.GN11541@digitalkingdom.org> <4BC02ABC.8000300@lojban.org> <4BC1D15A.5030409@lojban.org> <4BC36464.8010707@gmail.com> <6d4d93ea-e660-4ad1-8910-02ddbb96f48c@b6g2000yqi.googlegroups.com> <561527.86938.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <5f7591f2-cb68-4a39-940c-965a0770343f@b33g2000yqc.googlegroups.com> <775037.72228.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 09:04:27 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: [lojban] What gets into 'lo broda' To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: <775037.72228.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.120 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In these kinds of discussions it is often a good idea to go back to the bas= ics, in this case L-set theory. And it turns out, not surprisingly, that x= orxes intuitions are quite right, however unclear his explanations may have= been. In a set of L-sets, the internal boundaries dissolve and we get bac= k to a union (actually the ancestral of a union): all goes back to "individ= uals" (L-sets without subsidiary L-sets). So the set that contained all tho= se triples and quads that actually lifted the piano (L-sets all) turns out = to be just the members of those quads and triples, as xorxes said. =20 This leaves the question of how 'lo broda cu broda' is true and the answer = appears to be that from the things that broda, we can extract a collection = that simply is lo broda (lo broda are among the things that broda, in plur= alist terms). This still has some problem, since members of disjoint sets = that satisfied 'broda' before can now appear to form another set within the= brodaers which does not, in fact, satisfy broda. I have no idea how the s= emantics will puzzle this bit out, but at least the initial question about = how things get into lo broda has a solid answer. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.