From 3Ghy2SwcJBjgYsYihomagUcf.WigfidVUhaiiafYaliojm.Wig@groups.bounces.google.com Fri Apr 02 09:32:57 2010 Received: from mail-yx0-f146.google.com ([209.85.210.146]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3Ghy2SwcJBjgYsYihomagUcf.WigfidVUhaiiafYaliojm.Wig@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Nxjne-0001lx-Gz for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 09:32:56 -0700 Received: by yxe10 with SMTP id 10sf1882483yxe.16 for ; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 09:32:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=+4NVJ54jEfXxzAJAbH6+YJHsDv0MmUTxXleVQAOVzkc=; b=3z+cTx47JQ9ywpvLMhQ2P8PeYqvbiReEuIWkduRvdsYWqnbqBX/y1E9Y5xN4HlLHO3 ISbZ64WuyfPqwuaU+HebUnnzEFlBT70jkd41BY4CDfesO63mCI2cP2K5D61b0BxE3m0L feh2YR9KOrF9r08ybfMcUuZ4sPOgX3QazAco4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=CKJuhjcgS1n1dRFje+9x/adOAA4a0DtJ2Le3gEqRfsWwAD3BjFQF9e0xr/FZeMAPyP R6Kh7MhI26K1KaPg2C5glzSO2qnrxcJ1hU+s51s+BXPcuyxq/iZoGNPc8jg7F7bxG4jK QaMnZErNWeHNbwGXWEdZvkgtkQsXWZuxoN3Gk= Received: by 10.91.84.20 with SMTP id m20mr345695agl.51.1270225946248; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 09:32:26 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.32.206 with SMTP id e14ls1042051bkd.2.p; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 09:32:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.136.79 with SMTP id q15mr151341bkt.13.1270225943351; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 09:32:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.136.79 with SMTP id q15mr151340bkt.13.1270225943313; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 09:32:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f171.google.com (mail-wy0-f171.google.com [74.125.82.171]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id e24si10661728bke.6.2010.04.02.09.32.22; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 09:32:22 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.171 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.171; Received: by mail-wy0-f171.google.com with SMTP id 28so651266wyf.16 for ; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 09:32:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.30.146 with HTTP; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 09:32:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201003312350.52303.phma@phma.optus.nu> <201004011214.40699.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 10:32:21 -0600 Received: by 10.216.89.130 with SMTP id c2mr1444013wef.44.1270225942045; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 09:32:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Summary: Cultural fu'ivla From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.171 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/6edf3f52e6f491ba X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/12eec20d2e10b96a Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6d99d7e0f63b90483438637 --0016e6d99d7e0f63b90483438637 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 12:43 PM, Christopher Doty wro= te: > Yeah, so, I feel kind of stupid now--I guess the summary I wrote would be > much better without any mention of gismu. Don't drop them, don't make ne= w > ones, just have fu'ivla and lujvo for the concepts we've been talking abo= ut, > and see if they catch on. > > I do want a want to talk about dialects, though--but maybe nationality > could be used for that... "This word corresponds to Australian in the > aspect of English?" i.e., "This word is Australian English" ?? > You can't do that, for at least the following reason: {lo matselgu'e} =3D {= lo se gugde} =3D {lo prenu pe lo gugde} gugde: "x1 is the country of peoples x2 with land/territory x3" So you can't use {matselgu'e} for anything except people- although you can use it for, say, a cat, if you think a cat qualifies as {lo prenu pe lo gugde} . You can, however, use {matybau}. Which is what you should be using, anyway, since a dialect is a subset of languages. The Southern dialect of American English is English, and English is a language, so when you want to talk about a dialect, you want to use "language". While it is true that {matybau} doesn't have a place for "dialect", Lojban has this wonderful method for adding places that don't exist. It's the cmav= o {fi'o}. For example: klesi: x1 (mass/si'o) is a class/category/subgroup/subset within x2 with defining property x3 zo'oi Yumpto? matybau mergli [bangu] fi'o klesi lo snanu The word "Yumpto?" corresponds to language American English, the South subset. > On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 10:24, Jonathan Jones wrote: > >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 11:17 AM, Jonathan Jones wrot= e: >> >>> Okay, so, the terms in the various cultural gismu, and my lujvo >>> suggestions for them, are: >>> >>> language - matybau - "m1/b1 corresponds to language of m2/b2 in aspect >>> m3" >>> culture - matklu - "m1/k1 corresponds to culture of m2/k1 in aspect m3" >>> community - matce'u - "m1/c1 corresponds to community m2/c2 in aspect m= 3" >>> religion - matyjda - "m1/l1 corresponds to religion of m2/l2 in aspect >>> m3/l3" >>> dialect (Australian) - skip it, use the language one. >>> empire (Latin) - I believe a lujvo for this already exists >>> ethos (Slavic) - skip it, use culture >>> >> nationality - matselgu'e - "m1/g1 corresponds to country m2/g2 in aspect >> m3" >> geography - matytutra "m1/t1 corresponds to territory of m2/t2 in aspect >> m3" >> >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 10:14 AM, Pierre Abbat wrote= : >>> >>>> On Thursday 01 April 2010 10:41:43 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas wrote: >>>> > On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 12:50 AM, Pierre Abbat >>>> wrote: >>>> > > On Wednesday 31 March 2010 16:54:27 Christopher Doty wrote: >>>> > >> Chechen (=D0=BD=D0=BE=D1=85=D1=87=D0=B8=D0=B9=D0=BD =D0=BC=D0=BE= =D1=82=D1=82) tce'acu (che/cau) >>>> > > >>>> > > There's one code that's not based on the autonym. I say "noxcino". >>>> > >>>> > I would be in favor of removing "xc" from the list of forbidden >>>> > clusters (but then I would give priority to "mz", "ntc", "nts", "ndz= ", >>>> > "ndj"). >>>> >>>> "noxtino", then. >>>> >>>> Pierre >>>> -- >>>> La sal en el mar es m=C3=A1s que en la sangre. >>>> Le sel dans la mer est plus que dans le sang. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>>> . >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>> >>> .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0016e6d99d7e0f63b90483438637 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 12:43 PM, Christopher Dot= y <suomichris@= gmail.com> wrote:
Yeah, so, I feel kind of stupid = now--I guess the summary I wrote would be much better without any mention o= f gismu. =C2=A0Don't drop them, don't make new ones, just have fu&#= 39;ivla and lujvo for the concepts we've been talking about, and see if= they catch on.=20

I do want a want to talk about dialects, though--but maybe nationality= could be used for that... =C2=A0"This word corresponds to=C2=A0Austra= lian=C2=A0in the aspect of English?" =C2=A0i.e., "This word is Au= stralian English" ??
=C2=A0
You can't do that, for at least the following reason: {lo matselgu= 'e} =3D {lo se gugde} =3D {lo prenu pe lo gugde}
gugde: "x1 is the country of peoples x2 with land/territory x3&qu= ot;
=C2=A0
So you can't use {matselgu'e} for anything except people- alth= ough you can use it for, say, a cat, if you think a cat qualifies as {lo pr= enu pe lo gugde} .
=C2=A0
You can, however, use {matybau}. Which is what you should be using, an= yway, since a dialect is a subset of languages. The Southern dialect of=C2= =A0American English is English, and English is a language, so when you want= to talk about a dialect, you want to use "language".
=C2=A0
While it is true that {matybau} doesn't have=C2=A0a place for &quo= t;dialect", Lojban has this wonderful method for adding places that do= n't exist. It's the cmavo {fi'o}. For example:
=C2=A0
klesi: x1 (mass/si'o) is a class/category/subgroup/subset within x= 2 with defining property x3
=C2=A0
zo'oi Yumpto? matybau mergli [bangu] fi'o klesi lo snanu
The word "Yumpto?" corresponds to language American English,= =C2=A0the South subset.
=C2=A0
On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 10:24, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gm= ail.com> wrote:


nationality - matselgu'e - "m1/g1 corresponds to country m2/g= 2 in aspect m3"
geography - matytutra "m1/t1 corresponds to te= rritory of=C2=A0m2/t2 in aspect m3"
=C2=A0
On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 10:14 AM, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
On Thursday 01 April 2010 10:41:43 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas wrote:
> = On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 12:50 AM, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
> &g= t; On Wednesday 31 March 2010 16:54:27 Christopher Doty wrote:
> >> Chechen (=D0=BD=D0=BE=D1=85=D1=87=D0=B8=D0=B9=D0=BD =D0=BC=D0= =BE=D1=82=D1=82) tce'acu (che/cau)
> >
> > There'= s one code that's not based on the autonym. I say "noxcino".<= br>>
> I would be in favor of removing "xc" from the lis= t of forbidden
> clusters (but then I would give priority to "mz", "ntc&= quot;, "nts", "ndz",
> "ndj").

<= /div>"noxtino", then.

Pierre
--=
La sal en el mar es m=C3=A1s que en la sangre.
Le sel dans la mer est pl= us que dans le sang.

--
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To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.= com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.




--=
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende= pe denpa bu




--
mu'o mi'e .aiony= s.

.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu

--
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To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.= com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

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For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.= com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu
=

--
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