From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRDhwcjeBBoER_Armw@googlegroups.com Fri Apr 23 15:36:45 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O5RUF-0001ji-R5; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 15:36:44 -0700 Received: by gyd5 with SMTP id 5sf9391230gyd.16 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 15:36:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=DJK/yzfd5hyRRmm3zJDcyq4Su9oWTTy/wrL1nMmGjXs=; b=nCYKt6RShu8bKpkVCfer5oHZyIqO0hM434sSZ+x9rMjNxmVr3Zp8qDXiAbLBUh7NKq dJP07JZKuTQpjEsThYirJ+Tg76nyX96hv4Tm5qQDkG5zx+wwnSV2p8qK8Sjz1hr1kckF +gvIfbwe7Igbd/4ktptMsBrkpC24YFlLApr1o= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=grlad7+EWe/aOn7kuYvDCpNLDGF7gxqPXw18MYpmuJBDSZQE+ThvUqvuCnA2T/O84x BCWY0Pz/zNXvZNzIft1O9YOwHbAnHI5c1KrsmaaMDRJeAAkV95k/+LZVaBbqwK4SqMKB 4lvPj4QRKBFuI+2P5+TDNQ1+66AK/Kit3cYhw= Received: by 10.150.234.1 with SMTP id g1mr172006ybh.27.1272062177742; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 15:36:17 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.91.66.23 with SMTP id t23ls33433424agk.6.p; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 15:36:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.41.36 with SMTP id o36mr262433ago.8.1272062175513; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 15:36:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.41.36 with SMTP id o36mr262432ago.8.1272062175487; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 15:36:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.117]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id 18si172953ywh.1.2010.04.23.15.36.14; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 15:36:14 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.117 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.117; Received: (qmail 74317 invoked by uid 60001); 23 Apr 2010 22:36:14 -0000 Message-ID: <971944.73808.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: ZIyFsCIVM1mV0HQl43qOTLdTly_dwfmrapG9Y3i7O6pxRS3 rJYTSwfoezCSaASvWsROCUAL.7prgl0EcsLWCVQA.QfDUNWz3yHdiVxcTbPT fKArMS2KwVUwl4loJWCuqL0d7k5hAGR2ZlTvd1z_V1niZxmyQdz_WBKkF838 X5EYMoU2XMmIGBsARH2H17nxNWPN2uElayMMR6lyK60ds67GaeA6Ssq3x16G aqAeouRqIesPDf48IiZG9oC30ixw2xmJ.WPN84QRM1ZH4hAjyibmKka8lZxW I6vq20VbMecKdnCz5cl2Ixso7Jwws69JQHooUC6YixvAmxgRxQuPEAMJFOdB phzAAp.aqkx6Vz9FDsQn_s_E_prMX_i5WthpB Received: from [71.14.73.129] by web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 15:36:13 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/348.5 YahooMailWebService/0.8.102.267879 References: <4BBE188B.8070807@lojban.org> <20100409014708.GB11541@digitalkingdom.org> <4BBF197D.6080601@lojban.org> <20100409222518.GN11541@digitalkingdom.org> <4BC02ABC.8000300@lojban.org> <4BC1D15A.5030409@lojban.org> <4BC36464.8010707@gmail.com> <6d4d93ea-e660-4ad1-8910-02ddbb96f48c@b6g2000yqi.googlegroups.com> <561527.86938.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <5f7591f2-cb68-4a39-940c-965a0770343f@b33g2000yqc.googlegroups.com> <775037.72228.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <910640.40103.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 15:36:13 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] What gets into 'lo broda' To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: <910640.40103.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.117 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So it now appears that the problem is that, while A, B, C, say get into lo = broda because they collectively broda, once they are in lo broda, there ent= ry pass is lost. Within lo broda (say it is A, B, C, D, E,) A,B,C is no di= fferent from A, D, E which might no broda collectively (nor individually n= either), So to solve how 'lo broda broda, we need to keep that collection = intact. Neither plural reference nor L-sets will do this, but C-sets will,= so perhaps we should fall back to them (with some regret). But they give = the "wrong answer" to the reward question. Or do they? In the reward ques= tion as set up, the players were indistinguishable, each participated in th= e same number of lifts. Suppose, to simplify, there are only three players= , none of whom can do the lift alone, but AB can and BC, while AC tries a f= ew times without success. Now it seems less right that each gets a hundred= dollars. Giving each pair 100 dollars results, assuming even splits, in A and C each getting 50, while B, who did more successful lifti= ng, gets 100 (the fact that this say a c-note, we will not mention). There= are sure to be a number of problems with this solution, too, but it has th= e advantage of using a single type of reference and of quantification and o= f answering sensibly both the reference and the satisfaction question. To = be sure, there is a lot of unmarked indivual/collective ambiguity -- or jus= t not mentioned -- going on, but that is for fine-turing. ----- Original Message ---- From: John E Clifford To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Fri, April 23, 2010 11:04:27 AM Subject: [lojban] What gets into 'lo broda' In these kinds of discussions it is often a good idea to go back to the bas= ics, in this case L-set theory. And it turns out, not surprisingly, that x= orxes intuitions are quite right, however unclear his explanations may have= been. In a set of L-sets, the internal boundaries dissolve and we get bac= k to a union (actually the ancestral of a union): all goes back to "individ= uals" (L-sets without subsidiary L-sets). So the set that contained all tho= se triples and quads that actually lifted the piano (L-sets all) turns out = to be just the members of those quads and triples, as xorxes said. =20 This leaves the question of how 'lo broda cu broda' is true and the answer = appears to be that from the things that broda, we can extract a collection = that simply is lo broda (lo broda are among the things that broda, in plur= alist terms). This still has some problem, since members of disjoint sets = that satisfied 'broda' before can now appear to form another set within the= brodaers which does not, in fact, satisfy broda. I have no idea how the s= emantics will puzzle this bit out, but at least the initial question about = how things get into lo broda has a solid answer. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.