From lojban+bncCNuStaWoDxDW1MjeBBoEPzs9Xg@googlegroups.com Fri Apr 23 16:17:05 2010 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O5S7I-0003dp-VR; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 16:17:05 -0700 Received: by wya21 with SMTP id 21sf1205926wya.16 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 16:16:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:message-id:date :from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=AC2nu9ydtYx3kWE3xRaOkXxLlkXtAx5TEBYU9a7xSug=; b=Rk8AJusbrEHbQ5oR+JmI10rDBd5d5HXokfXnMUK4jRWD1B+8fkkMXr/s7EN+CWjHd7 erq9uVhTg5uJ+E/LUnzhfHXQ4UmrylXpPjNUrZD7vYDjzveCb5+12gadK4W4xpmBrHKU 8N/79UxI4J2TDaaiAn2FRG7N2fQ/twv5gP0xs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from:user-agent :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=QEREUKLXNbcQ11JJulA/vgt7TjkHO9GD7r759zRLRv4Z8Bx7QTNq8Mrf3z/lWJMmaw iKpmfLdRE9bXbsHGYje20cNHoWSIlClznAIMJUe3AwnX2JSUUT1efGiUZuNTnonF8spa LgwegI+LtEQNtTe6z1wwZME6dhB/zwXewcVH8= Received: by 10.223.63.20 with SMTP id z20mr273054fah.32.1272064598789; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 16:16:38 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.145.167 with SMTP id p39ls5168559wej.0.p; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 16:16:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.90.6 with SMTP id d6mr72696wef.2.1272064597487; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 16:16:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.90.6 with SMTP id d6mr72695wef.2.1272064597448; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 16:16:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f45.google.com (mail-ww0-f45.google.com [74.125.82.45]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id h17si1850364wbh.5.2010.04.23.16.16.36; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 16:16:36 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.45 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.45; Received: by wwd20 with SMTP id 20so1805519wwd.32 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 16:16:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.89.203 with SMTP id c53mr1013362wef.79.1272064596260; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 16:16:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.72] (87-194-76-9.bethere.co.uk [87.194.76.9]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id t27sm1387564wbc.11.2010.04.23.16.16.35 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 23 Apr 2010 16:16:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4BD22A52.1050609@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 00:16:34 +0100 From: And Rosta User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: {le} in xorlo References: <4BBE188B.8070807@lojban.org> <4BC1D15A.5030409@lojban.org> <4BC36464.8010707@gmail.com> <6d4d93ea-e660-4ad1-8910-02ddbb96f48c@b6g2000yqi.googlegroups.com> <7913e18e-b0f2-4b18-bb4d-ecf39ef60f38@v14g2000yqb.googlegroups.com> <4BD1EA77.3070908@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.45 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=and.rosta@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: and.rosta@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jorge Llamb=EDas, On 23/04/2010 23:31: > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 3:44 PM, And Rosta wrote: >> Jorge Llamb=EDas, On 23/04/2010 02:07: >>> We would also have: "LE relative-clause KU" (as well as the more >>> obvious "LE KU relative-clause") >> Do they mean the same thing? I remember we discussed it once, many years >> ago, but can't remember the answer. >=20 > Without a quantifier, I don't see a difference. With a quantifier, the > inner clause should be clearly part of the sumti, and so it should > work in the same way as without a quantifier. >=20 > The outer clause with a quantifier involved is tricky. It could be > taken as restricting the referents of the sumti, or as restricting the > quantifier. If the latter, then each value of the bound variable must > pass through the restrictive clause filter individually. I don't know > whether it's worth making it restrict the quantifier. One problem is > that in "ko'a poi broda" we don't really have the two choices. >=20 > no lo ze prenu (ku) poi pendo mi cu klama lo fasygu'e > "None of the seven people who are my friends went to France." >=20 > Am I saying that of the seven people who are my friends, none of them > went to France, or that of the seven people, no friend of mine went to > France? Without "ku", it's clearly the first, but what happens with > "ku"? Unsurprisingly, my intuitive reading of the ku poi version is the second on= e. Is the lack of two choices for ko'a poi due to syntactic reasons? It should= n't be for semantic reasons. If "ko'a" is equivalent to "lo me ko'a", as I = think it should be, then there's the same contrast with "no lo ze me ko'a (= ku) poi pendo mi cu klama lo fasygu'e" and hence "no ko'a (ku) poi pendo mi= cu klama lo fasygu'e". Changing the subject, slightly: one of the things about your putative equiv= alence between lo ku and zo'e that makes me uncomfortable is that zo'e shou= ld arguably include zi'o, but lo ku certainly shouldn't. But that's an issu= e less to do with logical language than with a specific Lojban bugfix (i.e.= introduction of zi'o to compensate for bad gismu place structures and perh= aps to render usage less erroneous (if empty sumti places can be filled wit= h zi'o)). --And. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.