From lojban+bncCOzcnrWBFBDp1sjeBBoEr3Hsog@googlegroups.com Fri Apr 23 16:21:40 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f166.google.com ([209.85.221.166]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O5SBj-0003oo-2g; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 16:21:39 -0700 Received: by qyk38 with SMTP id 38sf24527283qyk.1 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 16:21:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received:received-spf:received:mime-version:sender :received:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=GgD71Eh21SNnMWghB+YnsF40dteRDy+2VzQWoyzT9fI=; b=c5kebJBjsWYOhSUbZcqk5owpStmqN5awvhvl3UFC1yVBsBFk/UrPzB8GicONkMsbhn 0J8C+n8SdltMSQasR/YBg/3zuRIpPQhuFBm7yzC7D819jNS9Q4RLO4qMFanDU5JKNRGh m0U24FKMnJB71wCdmOqhMgszX20fu/VGyqrS0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=WNV9aZekMJqAtsHQs4XW4GQb84dz39v2yMsFZ3wuAlFgy/JT1ZjTKDYIptToHTYYNx ObBpRlgYs2YToM23ruHsS2N2wByxy0xcdgROQ0CDkdIiwRq3In0g4clSwn9OgkTq5EbQ 4ekLD23cf7NmpuuQHaq8+bsipMQEzK/4DV3Tk= Received: by 10.229.112.18 with SMTP id u18mr85851qcp.22.1272064873690; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 16:21:13 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.53.149 with SMTP id m21ls311048qag.6.p; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 16:21:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.73.76 with SMTP id p12mr66012qaj.6.1272064872027; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 16:21:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.91.203 with SMTP id o11mr2471037vcm.16.1272023922999; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 04:58:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.91.203 with SMTP id o11mr2471036vcm.16.1272023922954; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 04:58:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f180.google.com (mail-qy0-f180.google.com [209.85.221.180]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id b14si707916vcx.1.2010.04.23.04.58.41; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 04:58:41 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of pascal.akihiko@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.180 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.221.180; Received: by mail-qy0-f180.google.com with SMTP id 10so12751697qyk.25 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 04:58:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.111.102 with HTTP; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 04:58:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 12:58:41 +0100 Received: by 10.229.251.69 with SMTP id mr5mr4403839qcb.91.1272023921322; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 04:58:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: [lojban] head & modifier in tanru From: tijlan To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of pascal.akihiko@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.180 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=pascal.akihiko@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: pascal.akihiko@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016363b9120f9ebbe0484e625c6 --0016363b9120f9ebbe0484e625c6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was thinking about why Lojban has the modifier-head order as the default in endocentric tanru (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocentric). The first reason I could think of was the readability of x2, x3... in an APA (argument-predicate-argument, SVO) environment. In "da brodi drode broda de= " (the head being "broda"), the relationship between each brivla and each sumti seems more intuitive with their distances being optimally short: "da"= , which is the merged x1 of "brodi", "brode", and "broda", is next to these brivla's sequence, and "de", which is the x2 of "broda", immediatly follows "broda". However, as for AAP (SOV), "da de brodi brode broda", the default tanru order does not work in as much intuitive a way. Both "da" and "de" ar= e more distant from the head "broda" than what they would have been if the tanru's order were head-modifier i.e. "da de broda brode brodi". At least o= n this point it seems a little bit shame that Lojban is not optimised for AAP= , the type most prevalent among human languages on this planet. CLL says "The standard order of Lojban tanru, whereby the modifier precedes what it modifies, is very natural to English-speakers" (5.8). This may well be related to the fact that English is APA and that this type syntactically gets along with the modifier-head order as I have just pointed out. But a study which I brought up in other topics suggests that even native APA speakers unconsciously yet cognitively tend to prefer AAP ( http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/06/roots-of-langua/). So, in additio= n to this possibly Anglo- or Euro-centricity being inappropriate for Lojban, = I suspect also that the decided default tanru order might not really be 'natural' to English-speakers themselves on their subconscious level of cognition. I personally like the idea of more basic components preceding less basic components, as it allows a more pictorial way of communicating information; it allows you to picture an image naturally as you receive eac= h word in the order of semantic essentiality. Experienced painters don't star= t from the details (the textures of a mountain's surface, the moles on a person's skin, etc.). But Lojban tanru runs the other way around; it paints first the secondary details then the primary part: rufsu je srasu bo claxu cmana, ci mei ke cmalu je xekri barna ke'e mebri. On second thought, I realised that a head-modifier tanru would have been a reverse of its modifier-head lujvo partner, which I'm not sure would have been convenient. But then again why not head-modifier for lujvo components? Compounds like this certainly exist in natural languages: Chinese (SVO): =E5=BD=95=E9=9F=B3 l=C3=B9y=C4=ABn (record-sound --> sound-= recording) Hebrew (occasionally SVO): =D7=91=D6=B5=D6=BC=D7=99=D7=AA =D7=A1=D6=B5=D7= =A4=D6=B6=D7=A8 *bet sefer* (house-book --> school) mu'o lo ka'e ctuca be mi mi'e tijlan --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0016363b9120f9ebbe0484e625c6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was thinking about why Lojban has the modifier-head order as the default = in endocentric tanru (= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocentric). The first reason I could thi= nk of was the readability of x2, x3... in an APA (argument-predicate-argume= nt, SVO) environment. In "da brodi drode broda de" (the head bein= g "broda"), the relationship between each brivla and each sumti s= eems more intuitive with their distances being optimally short: "da&qu= ot;, which is the merged x1 of "brodi", "brode", and &q= uot;broda", is next to these brivla's sequence, and "de"= , which is the x2 of "broda", immediatly follows "broda"= ;. However, as for AAP (SOV), "da de brodi brode broda", the defa= ult tanru order does not work in as much intuitive a way. Both "da&quo= t; and "de" are more distant from the head "broda" than= what they would have been if the tanru's order were head-modifier i.e.= "da de broda brode brodi". At least on this point it seems a lit= tle bit shame that Lojban is not optimised for AAP, the type most prevalent= among human languages on this planet.

CLL says "The standard order of Lojban ta= nru, whereby the=20 modifier precedes what it modifies, is very natural to English-speakers" (5= .8). This may well be related to the fact that English is APA and that = this type syntactically gets along with the modifier-head order as I have j= ust pointed out. But a study which I brought up in other topics suggests th= at even native APA speakers unconsciously yet cognitively tend to prefer AA= P (h= ttp://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/06/roots-of-langua/). So, in addi= tion to this possibly Anglo- or Euro-centricity being inappropriate for Loj= ban, I suspect also that the decided default tanru order might not really b= e 'natural' to English-speakers themselves on their subconscious le= vel of cognition. I personally like the idea of more basic components prece= ding less basic components, as it allows a more pictorial way of communicat= ing information; it allows you to picture an image naturally as you receive= each word in the order of semantic essentiality. Experienced painters don&= #39;t start from the details (the textures of a mountain's surface, the= moles on a person's skin, etc.). But Lojban tanru runs the other way a= round; it paints first the secondary details then the primary part: rufsu j= e srasu bo claxu cmana, ci mei ke cmalu je xekri barna ke'e mebri.

On second thought, I realised that a head-modifier tanru would have bee= n a reverse of its modifier-head lujvo partner, which I'm not sure woul= d have been convenient. But then again why not head-modifier for lujvo comp= onents? Compounds like this certainly exist in natural languages:

=C2=A0Chinese (SVO): =E5=BD=95=E9=9F=B3 l=C3=B9y=C4=ABn (record-sound -= -> sound-recording)
=C2=A0Hebrew (occasionally SVO): =D7=91=D6=B5=D6= =BC=D7=99=D7=AA =D7=A1=D6=B5=D7=A4=D6=B6=D7=A8 bet sefer (house-book= --> school)

mu'o lo ka'e ctuca be mi mi'e tijlan
=

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