From lojban+bncCNuStaWoDxDR3MjeBBoEHPtXUg@googlegroups.com Fri Apr 23 16:34:07 2010 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O5SNk-0004V5-B6; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 16:34:07 -0700 Received: by wwb17 with SMTP id 17sf256421wwb.16 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 16:33:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:message-id:date :from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=vT5Q+pnMg37RLwX8PRU1NMC5RsSMDNSSmC8DLez03Yw=; b=fbckOwAy4lNho/RfcSOQRGOT7lqDEsx/iysxlZhK0FhkddpJddP3xKk2mNX4d483TW bxzFrB59YWriwgr2NlOzEB6ZMTB5qU07VOrvQy7Gh4lrVUm3fkQ83n3XYlkVcEKlt5dT 5iWDKP+/g3s1MjIApdPwIA9wngI38kBi3lhzk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from:user-agent :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=bieDNv3tOdTD8u6sQH49C2y0374ry3JeiDI43/2hzFZq+yGuS+r8Kp/ZIrzEOD/Ns6 kikCx82hlVVqV0aBTEJfPA1mUxlnrYFNfNWS0N0bROyV6mLrg4nQ1rxprsBum33Zzmvm eeh/2JZA7xWVRaVgFuMMM3oSoaCI3TErUYBzY= Received: by 10.223.132.216 with SMTP id c24mr280556fat.2.1272065617185; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 16:33:37 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.24.105 with SMTP id w83ls5191318wew.1.p; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 16:33:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.86.203 with SMTP id w53mr70463wee.29.1272065615922; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 16:33:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.86.203 with SMTP id w53mr70462wee.29.1272065615893; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 16:33:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f179.google.com (mail-wy0-f179.google.com [74.125.82.179]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id h17si1869364wbh.1.2010.04.23.16.33.34; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 16:33:34 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.179 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.179; Received: by wyj26 with SMTP id 26so390767wyj.24 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 16:33:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.90.4 with SMTP id d4mr1008947wef.135.1272065614688; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 16:33:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.72] (87-194-76-9.bethere.co.uk [87.194.76.9]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id r29sm321252wbv.15.2010.04.23.16.33.33 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 23 Apr 2010 16:33:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4BD22E4C.2000302@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 00:33:32 +0100 From: And Rosta User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] About plural 'ro' References: <6a2c862a-91f0-452e-9a31-0064620d5d06@g11g2000yqe.googlegroups.com> <225049.90411.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <734238.40743.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4BD060B7.5020903@gmail.com> <4BD0F4FE.8010106@gmail.com> <4BD1E52B.5040003@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.179 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=and.rosta@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: and.rosta@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Excuse the reply by top-posting: my comment pertains to the whole of your m= sg. Given your reply, it seems that we differ only in how we use the term 'refe= rent': my "referent" =3D your "referents (taken together)" your "referent" =3D my "primitive subcollectivity of the referent" A further reason why I prefer my version is that it's possible for it to be= clear what the referent is without it being clear what (or how many, etc.)= its primitive subcollectivities are. Translate that into your terms, and i= t's rather weird: "It's possible for it to be clear what the referents (tak= en together) are, without it being clear what each referent is or how many = referents there are". --And. Jorge Llamb=EDas, On 23/04/2010 22:39: > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 3:21 PM, And Rosta wrote: >> I'm not sure yet if our conceptions are equivalent. Here's why I think t= hey >> might differ. Suppose the referent(s) of ko'a is/are {A, B, C}. For me, >> "ko'a broda" would be true only if it's true of the collectivity {A, B, = C} >> (where the criteria for being true of a collectivity will depend on the >> particular semantics of broda). >=20 > For me, it will be true if it's true of A, B, C, (where the criteria > for being true of three things will depend on the particular semantics > of broda). >=20 >> For you, it would be true if it's true of >> ABC, AB, AC, BC, A, B, C. >=20 > No, just of A, B, C. >=20 > Which is not to say true of A, true of B and true of C. It only needs > to be true of A, B, C, where the criteria for being true of three > things will depend on the particular semantics of broda. >=20 >> For my method to get that reading, you'd have to >> say "su'o subcollectivity of ko'a cu broda". >=20 > You seem to be describing here "su'oi ko'a cu broda", not "ko'a broda". >=20 >> Your questions & answers and my answers: >> >>> Is it necessary that each of the referents satisfy the predicate? No. >> me: Yes; since there is a single referent, it must satisfy the predicate= . >=20 > But the equivalent question asked of you would not be the identically > phrased question, it would be: >=20 > Is it necessary that each of the primitive subcollectivities satisfy > the predicate? >=20 >=20 >>> Is it necessary that they satisfy it all collectively? No. >> me: Yes, since 'collective' is the absence of quantification over >> subcollectivities of the referent. >=20 > OK. But then your "collective" is not quite what I meant by > "collectively". I meant, is it necessary that all the referents broda > together? For example, if it's about carrying a piano, is it necessary > that they all carry it together? In your terms, is it necessary that > all the members of the collective broda together? If it's about being > a man, is it necessary that they are all a man together? In other > words, I'm asking details about the criteria you mention above, and > the answer will probably be: there is no general answer, we need to > look at the specific predicate and the specific context. >=20 >>> Instead of saying "is it necessary that each of the referents of 'lo >>> broda' satisfies the predicate 'broda'? No." you will say "is it >>> necessary that each primitive subcollectivity of the referent of 'lo >>> broda' satisfies the predicate? No.", and so on. I don't see it is >>> simpler. >> But for me, "{A,B,C} broda" makes no claims about subcollectivities. >=20 > Neither does "A, B, C broda" for me make any claims about A, or about > B, or about C, or about AB, or about BC, or about AC (or about ABC to > the extent that it may be different from A, B, C. The claim is about > the three. That's why both of our answers would be "No, it's not > necessary". (In particular cases, the criteria for evaluating the > claim may involve looking at what happens with A, or with B, or with > AB, etc, but there is no claim about anything other that A, B, C. >=20 > mu'o mi'e xorxes >=20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.