From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRCo_cjeBBoEbcJlxQ@googlegroups.com Fri Apr 23 17:43:47 2010 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O5TTB-0007Uw-NE; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 17:43:46 -0700 Received: by vws20 with SMTP id 20sf3234202vws.16 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 17:43:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=L25PKS6xjb5QNNmZTlJ2Mes+8rJoAu1aDH4DyyZwwUA=; b=CS+i5EQiD5OY/U7OsXmegy2jh9M+wEfkT0o9xKP2+niFr76FxzQeHzUGFBN4+HF8/D v2T7rvafb2+fbusmBYpfDwTdgaswjiYRj+tbAZeQ4mn+oQcq3pG4Y1dgPLQkbsilwLME 1hZif8vq8dxpCfzRTjBpeQLY/Fk4FQLwyi7I0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=KUw96p8GNCjbyryVJtqtESmg/SEY/1V7tJS+8anFCVBPiKcxx8SKdCESz/ScuQmIP+ VOzoklo5paIAUjpCDwWwFpciKLqFqAPOTruC95qUPk8hiJwWPHXbbuefYYWL37kE3ev2 cupbujiwmqzQRVtdS9dLMatnSfn7hfc00AqAE= Received: by 10.220.107.198 with SMTP id c6mr67652vcp.57.1272069800221; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 17:43:20 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.79.22 with SMTP id n22ls31000214vck.3.p; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 17:43:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.162.3 with SMTP id t3mr176925vcx.23.1272069799399; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 17:43:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.162.3 with SMTP id t3mr176923vcx.23.1272069799376; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 17:43:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f171.google.com (mail-qy0-f171.google.com [209.85.221.171]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id a10si1135727vci.4.2010.04.23.17.43.18; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 17:43:18 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.171 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.221.171; Received: by mail-qy0-f171.google.com with SMTP id 1so12569537qyk.15 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 17:43:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.81.81 with SMTP id w17mr1051939qck.4.1272069798153; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 17:43:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.79.75 with HTTP; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 17:43:17 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <603a6f42-f8f0-4072-9c02-63cbcdb39f1c@y14g2000yqm.googlegroups.com> References: <4BBE188B.8070807@lojban.org> <4BC36464.8010707@gmail.com> <6d4d93ea-e660-4ad1-8910-02ddbb96f48c@b6g2000yqi.googlegroups.com> <7913e18e-b0f2-4b18-bb4d-ecf39ef60f38@v14g2000yqb.googlegroups.com> <4BD1EA77.3070908@gmail.com> <4BD22A52.1050609@gmail.com> <603a6f42-f8f0-4072-9c02-63cbcdb39f1c@y14g2000yqm.googlegroups.com> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 21:43:17 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: {le} in xorlo From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.171 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 8:59 PM, Daniel Brockman wrot= e: > > I actually think zo'e should not include zi'o. =A0My basic assumption is > that zo'e should always be exactly equivalent to leaving the sumti > out. Ideally, that's how it should be. But in practice, some gismu have such terrible place structures that the alternatives are (1) accept the official place structure and assume that the unwanted place is filled with a silent "zi'o" (an explicit zi'o has the opposite effect of calling attention to the place instead of keeping it out of mind), or (2) use the gismu as if it had a more sensible place structure, in which case "zi'o" is not needed, and there is no need for a silent "zo'e" to be standing for it because there is no place there to begin with. Personally, I go with (2), and so I don't really need "zo'e" to stand for "zi'o". Not that any of this has any practical consequences one way or the other, it's just how someone can explain it to themselves. > And I don't think {klama} can mean {klama zi'o}. =A0That's because zi'o > alters the predicate fundamentally. =A0So it's maybe no longer {klama}. > > For the same reason, I think {klama} should not include {to'e klama}. What's "to'e klama"? Are you thinking of come/go? They are both "klama": klama ti =3D comes here klama tu =3D goes there it's just that English uses different verbs depending on whether the destination is close to the speaker or not. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.