No, they are either all in one set, so possibly with 'joi= ' or whatever that particular kind of "and" . xorxes says "the same t= hing" with just A,B, C and the understanding that they are to be taken as s= atisfying 'broda' collectively, although he wouldn't have any explici= t mark for collective or individual satisfaction.

From: MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com>To: lojban@googlegroups.c= om
Sent: Fri, April 23,= 2010 6:27:31 PM
Subject: Re: [lojba= n] About plural 'ro'

What does "{A, B, C} broda" mean? Is it the same as "A and/or B and/or= C broda"?

(Is that "A a B a C broda"?)

stevo

2010/4/23 Jorge Llamb=EDas <= ;jjllambias@gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 3:21 PM, And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com> wrote:
>
&= gt; I'm not sure yet if our conceptions are equivalent. Here's why I think = they
> might differ. Suppose the referent(s) of ko'a is/are {A, B, C}. For me= ,
> "ko'a broda" would be true only if it's true of the collectivity = {A, B, C}
> (where the criteria for being true of a collectivity will= depend on the
> particular semantics of broda).

For me, it will be true i= f it's true of A, B, C, (where the criteria
for being true of three thin= gs will depend on the particular semantics

of broda).

> For you, it would be true if it's = true of
> ABC, AB, AC, BC, A, B, C.

No, just of A, B, C.=

Which is not to say true of A, true of B and true of C. It only nee= ds
to be true of A, B, C, where the criteria for being true of three
things= will depend on the particular semantics of broda.

> For my method to get that reading, you'd have to=
> say "su'o subcollectivity of ko'a cu broda".

You seem= to be describing here "su'oi ko'a cu broda", not "ko'a broda".

> Your questions & answers and my answers:
= >
>> Is it necessary that each of the referents satisfy the pre= dicate? No.
>
> me: Yes; since there is a single referent, it m= ust satisfy the predicate.

But the equivalent question asked of you would not be the identic= ally
phrased question, it would be:

Is it necessary that each of = the primitive subcollectivities satisfy

the predicate?

>> Is it necessary that t= hey satisfy it all collectively? No.
>
> me: Yes, since 'collec= tive' is the absence of quantification over
> subcollectivities of th= e referent.

OK. But then your "collective" is not quite what I meant by
"c= ollectively". I meant, is it necessary that all the referents broda
toge= ther? For example, if it's about carrying a piano, is it necessary
that they all carry it together? In your terms, is it necessary that
all= the members of the collective broda together? If it's about being
a man= , is it necessary that they are all a man together? In other
words, I'm = asking details about the criteria you mention above, and
the answer will probably be: there is no general answer, we need to
look= at the specific predicate and the specific context.

>> Instead of saying "is it necessary that each= of the referents of 'lo
>> broda' satisfies the predicate 'broda'= ? No." you will say "is it
>> necessary that each primitive subcol= lectivity of the referent of 'lo
>> broda' satisfies the predicate? No.", and so on. I don't see it is=
>> simpler.
>
> But for me, "{A,B,C} broda" makes no = claims about subcollectivities.

Neither does "A, B, C broda" f= or me make any claims about A, or about
B, or about C, or about AB, or about BC, or about AC (or about ABC to
th= e extent that it may be different from A, B, C. The claim is about
the t= hree. That's why both of our answers would be "No, it's not
necessary". (In particular cases, the criteria for evaluating the
claim = may involve looking at what happens with A, or with B, or with
AB, etc, = but there is no claim about anything other that A, B, C.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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