From lojban+bncCOzcnrWBFBDV0cneBBoEFefBPQ@googlegroups.com Fri Apr 23 20:43:44 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f166.google.com ([209.85.221.166]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O5WHL-00070Z-DL; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 20:43:43 -0700 Received: by qyk38 with SMTP id 38sf24854860qyk.1 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 20:43:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received :sender:received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=ExPcZFb5bw+ZqFrxkLFl9HR2J31Da4ed6l8bojqCwo0=; b=T819KEEfbAVyqcJd4eSO8byDy0pb7fPi/3BW4CAZLzN4WPCjLumnxHfKSoyMDjpjdG UgZrPUrB3yKk1m6us3lC+LbxK4GoALOsAxr7Bw3Zef/SgUPzMntNyi+HOxXN3Un+RzCU KAqzUpXVDuAgYz8VbNS2VAJL3Q9lzEvq3hMTE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; b=vgtgqc4+K+KmvPM7A0ZV95nnbJYY5t+EvTPPF4DfPQK8qqVnPyvCGOl22SR0m2Ivao rOceIIWw2rsK3MeABGvaOk5Y3HB4DwdoRLB4dcDKZhoUIRxQhFms5OiRFf8+mjhWvFSY b3alKsIHbrRnhKZhZ2vGZxB9rSl8b8B5tGpi4= Received: by 10.224.26.142 with SMTP id e14mr93237qac.34.1272080597988; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 20:43:17 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.53.149 with SMTP id m21ls499609qag.6.p; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 20:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.102.72 with SMTP id f8mr83334qao.13.1272080596515; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 20:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.171.67 with SMTP id g3mr192777vcz.27.1272072142092; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 18:22:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.171.67 with SMTP id g3mr192776vcz.27.1272072142054; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 18:22:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f173.google.com (mail-qy0-f173.google.com [209.85.221.173]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id b14si1157196vcx.5.2010.04.23.18.22.20; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 18:22:21 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of pascal.akihiko@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.173 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.221.173; Received: by qyk4 with SMTP id 4so12812013qyk.17 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 18:22:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.236.16 with SMTP id ki16mr925057qcb.68.1272072140510; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 18:22:20 -0700 (PDT) Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.111.102 with HTTP; Fri, 23 Apr 2010 18:22:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 02:22:20 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] head & modifier in tanru From: tijlan To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of pascal.akihiko@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.173 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=pascal.akihiko@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: pascal.akihiko@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016363b843e1059c50484f16010 --0016363b843e1059c50484f16010 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2010/4/24 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas > > In "da brodi drode broda de" > > (the head being "broda"), the relationship between each brivla and each > > sumti seems more intuitive with their distances being optimally short: > "da", > > which is the merged x1 of "brodi", "brode", and "broda", > > Not necessarily. da is the x1 of broda, but the roles of brode and > brodi can vary. > Yes, that has been my real understanding. For this example I just echoed a term I came across in CLL 5:7: "In fact, ``blanu'' has only one place, and this is merged, as it were, with the x1 place of ``zdani''." But of course "da brodi brode broda de" is too general an example for such a non-general comment on tanru. I shouldn't have said that. > On second thought, I realised that a head-modifier tanru would have been = a > > reverse of its modifier-head lujvo partner, which I'm not sure would ha= ve > > been convenient. But then again why not head-modifier for lujvo > components? > > Compounds like this certainly exist in natural languages: > > > > Chinese (SVO): =E5=BD=95=E9=9F=B3 l=C3=B9y=C4=ABn (record-sound --> so= und-recording) > > Hebrew (occasionally SVO): =D7=91=D6=B5=D6=BC=D7=99=D7=AA =D7=A1=D6=B5= =D7=A4=D6=B6=D7=A8 bet sefer (house-book --> school) > > Spanish (mostly SVO): abrelatas (opens-cans --> can-opener) > Some comparisons: lantykartci tcikarlante snarejgau gaurveisna carna'ivinji vijna'icarna mitsumvla valmunmi'u I briefly thought that it could be a good idea to allow both orders so that we could have more options and possibly shorter / higher score forms to choose for each lujvo. But soon I realised that we would end up being unabl= e to readily predict whether "snarejgau" is likely "recording of sounds" or "sounds of recording". mu'o mi'e tijlan --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0016363b843e1059c50484f16010 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
2010/4/24 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas = <jjllambias@gmail.com>
> =C2=A0In "da brodi drode broda de"
> (the head being "broda"), the relationship between each briv= la and each
> sumti seems more intuitive with their distances being optimally short:= "da",
> which is the merged x1 of "brodi", "brode", and &q= uot;broda",

Not necessarily. da is the x1 of broda, but the roles of brode and brodi can vary.

Yes, that has been my real underst= anding. For this example I just echoed a term I came across in CLL 5:7: &qu= ot;In fact, ``blanu'' has only one place, and this is merged, as it were, with the x1 place of ``zdani''.&quo= t; But of course "da brodi brode broda de" is too general an exam= ple for such a non-general comment on tanru. I shouldn't have said that= .

> On second thought, I realised that a head-modifier tanru would have be= en a
> reverse of its modifier-head lujvo partner, which I'm not sure wou= ld have
> been convenient. But then again why not head-modifier for lujvo compon= ents?
> Compounds like this certainly exist in natural languages:
>
> =C2=A0Chinese (SVO): =E5=BD=95=E9=9F=B3 l=C3=B9y=C4=ABn (record-sound = --> sound-recording)
> =C2=A0Hebrew (occasionally SVO): =D7=91=D6=B5=D6=BC=D7=99=D7=AA =D7=A1= =D6=B5=D7=A4=D6=B6=D7=A8 bet sefer (house-book --> school)

Spanish (mostly SVO): abrelatas (opens-cans --> can-opener)

Some comparisons:

=C2=A0lantykartci
= =C2=A0tcikarlante

=C2=A0snarejgau
=C2=A0gaurveisna

=C2=A0c= arna'ivinji
=C2=A0vijna'icarna

=C2=A0mitsumvla
=C2=A0v= almunmi'u

I briefly thought that it could be a good idea to allo= w both orders so that we could have more options and possibly shorter / hig= her score forms to choose for each lujvo. But soon I realised that we would= end up being unable to readily predict whether "snarejgau" is li= kely "recording of sounds" or "sounds of recording".
mu'o mi'e tijlan

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
--0016363b843e1059c50484f16010--