From lojban+bncCMvjp-TQBRCIl8zeBBoEed3FWw@googlegroups.com Sat Apr 24 08:17:55 2010 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O5h78-0008GM-FE; Sat, 24 Apr 2010 08:17:55 -0700 Received: by wwb34 with SMTP id 34sf34559wwb.16 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 2010 08:17:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:mime-version:received :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=nxeeE4yjwOMR+Fk/2+7//KtHKU/PX6ehqTSGOuIKrKc=; b=aS7j/NnLKQnEw5tDrNBUvRqi1j5IZB5U3TFqw+Uyobd8yas0ci80OXcB1nhlA+Qxiv FWgvSjSQJUBwvA+f/YWDALsbwEGz+DQ0aQvZVZJMXLdJUkQg8ZE9JjkT4mEVPPEXSDlp D0P6A2HQkV+aylQHPpFCg4h5YDfBoKfAliTZk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Ke5Rn7EFg2PO/DlpBwC+Rv+uMID1tgRVnDe0hf6f7yNqX9ReOb7QtT4uUgFbnA1aGh ql3bNRCXhIGmF9tocp4S1jsGZMCozEMeEsiLC2o1kFnkjAbOuLTCpYYYXuiHJrfGQUZv XzttX4PL6i1NFxDiqJOPWhRZb058tHd1oaksw= Received: by 10.223.5.69 with SMTP id 5mr478591fau.37.1272122248403; Sat, 24 Apr 2010 08:17:28 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.6.87 with SMTP id 23ls12734625bky.0.p; Sat, 24 Apr 2010 08:17:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.162.203 with SMTP id w11mr70381bkx.32.1272122247338; Sat, 24 Apr 2010 08:17:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.162.203 with SMTP id w11mr70380bkx.32.1272122247314; Sat, 24 Apr 2010 08:17:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f210.google.com (mail-bw0-f210.google.com [209.85.218.210]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 17si266577bwz.7.2010.04.24.08.17.26; Sat, 24 Apr 2010 08:17:26 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of dbrockman@gmail.com designates 209.85.218.210 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.218.210; Received: by bwz2 with SMTP id 2so6264410bwz.10 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 2010 08:17:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.134.84 with SMTP id i20mr945208bkt.192.1272122246109; Sat, 24 Apr 2010 08:17:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.47.196 with HTTP; Sat, 24 Apr 2010 08:17:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <4BBE188B.8070807@lojban.org> <6d4d93ea-e660-4ad1-8910-02ddbb96f48c@b6g2000yqi.googlegroups.com> <7913e18e-b0f2-4b18-bb4d-ecf39ef60f38@v14g2000yqb.googlegroups.com> <4BD1EA77.3070908@gmail.com> <4BD22A52.1050609@gmail.com> <603a6f42-f8f0-4072-9c02-63cbcdb39f1c@y14g2000yqm.googlegroups.com> From: Daniel Brockman Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 17:17:06 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: {le} in xorlo To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of dbrockman@gmail.com designates 209.85.218.210 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=dbrockman@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: dbrockman@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2010/4/24 Jorge Llamb=EDas : > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 8:59 PM, Daniel Brockman wr= ote: >> >> I actually think zo'e should not include zi'o. =A0My basic assumption is >> that zo'e should always be exactly equivalent to leaving the sumti >> out. > > Ideally, that's how it should be. But in practice, some gismu have > such terrible place structures that the alternatives are (1) accept > the official place structure and assume that the unwanted place is > filled with a silent "zi'o" (an explicit zi'o has the opposite effect > of calling attention to the place instead of keeping it out of mind), > or (2) use the gismu as if it had a more sensible place structure, in > which case "zi'o" is not needed, and there is no need for a silent > "zo'e" to be standing for it because there is no place there to begin > with. Personally, I go with (2), and so I don't really need "zo'e" to > stand for "zi'o". Not that any of this has any practical consequences > one way or the other, it's just how someone can explain it to > themselves. Good point. I too prefer (2) (no pun intended). >> And I don't think {klama} can mean {klama zi'o}. =A0That's because zi'o >> alters the predicate fundamentally. =A0So it's maybe no longer {klama}. >> >> For the same reason, I think {klama} should not include {to'e klama}. > > What's "to'e klama"? Are you thinking of come/go? No, I just picked {klama} at random --- bad example, I guess. What I meant was just that I consider {to'e broda} to be more or less a completely new predicate (for any {broda}). --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.