From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRC4lNHeBBoE34lZxg@googlegroups.com Sun Apr 25 06:57:40 2010 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O62L0-0000Yr-QU; Sun, 25 Apr 2010 06:57:39 -0700 Received: by wya21 with SMTP id 21sf2971780wya.16 for ; Sun, 25 Apr 2010 06:57:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=8VmNE/pv7G7K6Wy4mZySEX9ZTuRFBXrLF7OoeQKWuic=; b=wGAPY2brgMLRgvWzDSfIPtB1uKF5wDu0CqBfV6RKyLWvA/c35E+/+j7dgsynrpLvMV 9OC5EulKnEPnjKq2iq+7iUOLVCet8bgj2d2gJssgKGWO9qXmIBUkNrFhpU8/6B/+oPcG HFkL+mnb/EFH8WsDKzE7N7WprvWCMpOSJ6qQE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=G/f178OKCTBXGWoGnhESxoX3cOdPbyAI8DGSivtr9g4bPTiZsreb2ur7vdovSqQ0xF FnjDFlaSZiMd0QK6icopJlHA6uKfCRcGvH8HrbPKQ+byz3N66xtukQhQQ7kAvz/NYAyZ LZ3XVT8+tUBXOm17z59n05bFYlz4Mrhrw/RXU= Received: by 10.223.16.87 with SMTP id n23mr766542faa.44.1272203832893; Sun, 25 Apr 2010 06:57:12 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.6.87 with SMTP id 23ls13637315bky.0.p; Sun, 25 Apr 2010 06:57:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.152.26 with SMTP id e26mr123092bkw.18.1272203831055; Sun, 25 Apr 2010 06:57:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.152.26 with SMTP id e26mr123091bkw.18.1272203831029; Sun, 25 Apr 2010 06:57:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f192.google.com (mail-qy0-f192.google.com [209.85.221.192]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 17si382531bwz.11.2010.04.25.06.57.09; Sun, 25 Apr 2010 06:57:10 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.192 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.221.192; Received: by qyk30 with SMTP id 30so13269992qyk.16 for ; Sun, 25 Apr 2010 06:57:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.91.11 with SMTP id k11mr3081899qcm.50.1272203829113; Sun, 25 Apr 2010 06:57:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.79.75 with HTTP; Sun, 25 Apr 2010 06:57:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 10:57:09 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Explicit non-restriction From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.192 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 10:15 AM, Daniel Brockman wro= te: > > So you're saying that {ma poi me ro da} actually ends up > restricting {ma} to *each* thing? =A0In other words, it would > have to be everything at the same time? My comment was meant to be about "ro da" in general, not about its particular use in "me ro da". "me PA da" doesn't strictly make any sense with PA as a proper quantifier, because what "me" needs is something with referents (so it can create the selbri "x1 is among the referents of "), and what PA as a quantifier does is quantify a bridi, so we need to interpret "me PA da" in some way and the obvious choice is as "me lo PA da", where PA is no longer a quantifier. "lo ro da" is the sumti that has everything in the universe of discourse as referents, and so "ma poi me (lo) ro da" indeed makes no restrictions, because any number of things can be among the total number of things without the need for an aggregate of them. So, I wasn't really objecting to what you were doing, but just to the wording "everything is a referent of {ro da} (by definition)". "ro da" is an operator on a bridi, not something with referents. > I should have known better than to use logical quantification > without knowing what I'm doing. :-) Lojban pretends to be spoken logical notation, but then it does some weird things, like sticking quantifiers on terms, that need to be untangled and translated into proper logical notation anyway, so not much unlike natlangs. >>>> What if the answer is {no da}? >>> >>> You can still answer {no da}. >> >> Right, the answer to a question is never limited by the form of the >> question. How to answer a question is always a matter of pragmatics. >> The form of the question can only suggest the form of the answer, but >> if one needs to change the form in order to be truthful, informative, >> clear and relevant, one should not hesitate to do so. What matters to >> the person asking something is that you tell them what they want to >> know, not that you fill in a form properly (at least if they are a >> person and not a machine or a bureaucrat). > > Yes, of course. =A0In this case, though, wouldn't it also make > sense to a machine? =A0It seems to me that you can always > sensibly answer {no da} to a {ma} question. Well, yes, sort of. "Always" is always tricky. How can you sensibly answer "no da" to: ma du da I suppose in an empty universe of discourse you can. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.