From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRDtp9HeBBoEBcMMlQ@googlegroups.com Sun Apr 25 07:39:43 2010 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O62zT-0001HX-1j; Sun, 25 Apr 2010 07:39:42 -0700 Received: by wya21 with SMTP id 21sf3001182wya.16 for ; Sun, 25 Apr 2010 07:39:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=AtDxr48fNSbmr/2hhUhbrSU5ISO+p/lx9kmtMyvA+hI=; b=sF6uzrlm1Bcf0RyQgobIlE///3Qo4RlZSqVeQM7KFGA2sP2l+LEEzT+aaaRx6JgUXN gZsevUezuttNIZ2fKDV0gtqrUy3kUbV5y6TXEDvUhd9Sz1hpcAmjqfA5KE/Aurho7Qlt 3meEyh2ZwgSWhLf4Dgz6qSfhSjTRDo+ScCkiQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=pRzv3hxLEHl19bH2mGYgQTfmUYFLruj8AaJKbTqV6z8izKXLUTrB4mdP2Vdkua7O7/ SqXWFikF2Rykh6RXwsG1iLuyzhVWKP6bmFlTUJdUognGAw0mPw7oMgo5lwzxfwbdDlI6 IYzmJDPcWWKRgMn6SZYcdBn5K6lT8f852Z/IA= Received: by 10.223.64.212 with SMTP id f20mr762829fai.43.1272206317775; Sun, 25 Apr 2010 07:38:37 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.213.70.78 with SMTP id c14ls9970857ebj.2.p; Sun, 25 Apr 2010 07:38:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.211.26 with SMTP id n26mr2023635anq.8.1272206311550; Sun, 25 Apr 2010 07:38:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.211.26 with SMTP id n26mr2023634anq.8.1272206311528; Sun, 25 Apr 2010 07:38:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.120]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id 24si335872ywh.10.2010.04.25.07.38.30; Sun, 25 Apr 2010 07:38:30 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.120 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.120; Received: (qmail 96322 invoked by uid 60001); 25 Apr 2010 14:38:30 -0000 Message-ID: <983500.94659.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: 8Iokhp4VM1li3VS67mB57rLy8XZ9xQ2j7av42fvWYNlSBPl iGa2wBnBR0Gjh2OE0iQSR.7rp0tbVGY4E3msM1iwBhutgy9nIOcsT61gDoNs M4JoUtBq9MLrBX3l.sgc1qhk13CMq8qKyWytQmnMPitBaISGJQKECrca6_OT 4BAV06WFXhkKXBgUXY_gUlgDD_HWh_g8RXO3H0NiKTAYihDRrdZ2V0d2lNhs lK7TvUcV4ZaFGmQ01KxSwuIs9KAq6PWskH4jihtR8LxDYMnD9yQSyd.VwgWk IpNkprfrkAa7XyeVy_gdefsiXDFsFcfRRpHlmHKswYKINdpE5MYTFpZq2gEZ M0Q_EEr9M2ArM4l0GTt0NnFgK.gC_ Received: from [71.14.73.129] by web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 25 Apr 2010 07:38:29 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/348.5 YahooMailWebService/0.8.102.267879 References: <4BBE188B.8070807@lojban.org> <20100409014708.GB11541@digitalkingdom.org> <4BBF197D.6080601@lojban.org> <20100409222518.GN11541@digitalkingdom.org> <4BC02ABC.8000300@lojban.org> <4BC1D15A.5030409@lojban.org> <4BC36464.8010707@gmail.com> <6d4d93ea-e660-4ad1-8910-02ddbb96f48c@b6g2000yqi.googlegroups.com> <561527.86938.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <5f7591f2-cb68-4a39-940c-965a0770343f@b33g2000yqc.googlegroups.com> <775037.72228.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <910640.40103.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <971944.73808.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 07:38:29 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] What gets into 'lo broda' To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: <971944.73808.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.120 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On the other hand, using C-sets makes it hard to get back to inidividuals, = which may be buried a large number of set boundaries away by the time we ne= ed them. So, let's stick with L-sets or pluralities and seek a solution el= sewhere. The next attempt is to look at the notion of satisfaction as it a= pplies in logic simpliciter and as it works in the present case. Clearly t= he men who lifted the piano did not lift the piano in the same way as the t= rios who lifted the piano did. So let's save "satisfaction" for what the t= rios did (the basic metalanguage notion) and use "realization" for the broa= der concept. Then we can say that lo broda are those who realize 'broda' a= nd everything seems to work out right. A realizes 'broda' just in case for= every individual, x, among A there are y that 1)are among A, 2) x is amo= ng, and 3) satisfy 'broda' (this is in plural refernce and plural quantifi= cation language, I hope). The only problem that I see immediately is when the "individuals" are themselves sets of some sort, which then mus= t be C-sets to keep them together, rather than floating out into the great = plurality. [btw how to read 'broda cimei' (or whichever mVV i mean) "A tr= iad of things that broda": is it the things or the triads that broda?] ----- Original Message ---- From: John E Clifford To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Fri, April 23, 2010 5:36:13 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] What gets into 'lo broda' So it now appears that the problem is that, while A, B, C, say get into lo = broda because they collectively broda, once they are in lo broda, there ent= ry pass is lost. Within lo broda (say it is A, B, C, D, E,) A,B,C is no di= fferent from A, D, E which might no broda collectively (nor individually n= either), So to solve how 'lo broda broda, we need to keep that collection = intact. Neither plural reference nor L-sets will do this, but C-sets will,= so perhaps we should fall back to them (with some regret). But they give = the "wrong answer" to the reward question. Or do they? In the reward ques= tion as set up, the players were indistinguishable, each participated in th= e same number of lifts. Suppose, to simplify, there are only three players= , none of whom can do the lift alone, but AB can and BC, while AC tries a f= ew times without success. Now it seems less right that each gets a hundred= dollars. Giving each pair 100 dollars results, assuming even splits, in A and C each getting 50, while B, who did more successful liftin= g, gets 100 (the fact that this say a c-note, we will not mention). There = are sure to be a number of problems with this solution, too, but it has the= advantage of using a single type of reference and of quantification and of= answering sensibly both the reference and the satisfaction question. To b= e sure, there is a lot of unmarked indivual/collective ambiguity -- or just= not mentioned -- going on, but that is for fine-turing. ----- Original Message ---- From: John E Clifford To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Fri, April 23, 2010 11:04:27 AM Subject: [lojban] What gets into 'lo broda' In these kinds of discussions it is often a good idea to go back to the bas= ics, in this case L-set theory. And it turns out, not surprisingly, that x= orxes intuitions are quite right, however unclear his explanations may have= been. In a set of L-sets, the internal boundaries dissolve and we get bac= k to a union (actually the ancestral of a union): all goes back to "individ= uals" (L-sets without subsidiary L-sets). So the set that contained all tho= se triples and quads that actually lifted the piano (L-sets all) turns out = to be just the members of those quads and triples, as xorxes said. =20 This leaves the question of how 'lo broda cu broda' is true and the answer = appears to be that from the things that broda, we can extract a collection = that simply is lo broda (lo broda are among the things that broda, in plur= alist terms). This still has some problem, since members of disjoint sets = that satisfied 'broda' before can now appear to form another set within the= brodaers which does not, in fact, satisfy broda. I have no idea how the s= emantics will puzzle this bit out, but at least the initial question about = how things get into lo broda has a solid answer. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.