From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRC2ntLeBBoE7LysNw@googlegroups.com Sun Apr 25 11:52:01 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O66vs-0008SM-3B; Sun, 25 Apr 2010 11:52:01 -0700 Received: by gyd5 with SMTP id 5sf10897092gyd.16 for ; Sun, 25 Apr 2010 11:51:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=kJzyQsqmoC8dpk7FfBwJhIl3klDUXzbNYX+GJ1aAcrU=; b=XJYdhVlPCNUOE8+XZKDSv9kOx39sEPiliUWw7iiSicIqcz0DkoPuSJBn+FvTtFUdML vfldonvOcEobk1cTaLjjt2nfMcpaQihBneB5Lp/r79yFsWKqU15SMoZWJgj+C3lg6gp9 PKQer5Tj1mFKZKm8yXWcyflKC0nalIUem9H2M= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=AqAUaLjx8Z7aPOVzvgoRsfPplRs5N9MWdQ9V9msvYoWriZAptP+qRmfdXEGI17qPCP RbjuTgEq92bLQE8ExnNBvQ5QnnqiecwvCjd62UDhvUckREyNLhtWYEedW97SO5jkwzOh 7zOaGTVpJdgKXfpcZSicVWyKhNZiE/0Tl+JFg= Received: by 10.101.129.19 with SMTP id g19mr464525ann.39.1272221494173; Sun, 25 Apr 2010 11:51:34 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.168.36 with SMTP id v36ls36525227ano.4.p; Sun, 25 Apr 2010 11:51:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.206.24 with SMTP id i24mr2157958anq.38.1272221493515; Sun, 25 Apr 2010 11:51:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.206.24 with SMTP id i24mr2157957anq.38.1272221493139; Sun, 25 Apr 2010 11:51:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.124]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id 17si6394816anx.2.2010.04.25.11.51.31; Sun, 25 Apr 2010 11:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.124 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.124; Received: (qmail 37974 invoked by uid 60001); 25 Apr 2010 18:51:31 -0000 Message-ID: <770120.37196.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: AJvRmxoVM1mECB0a20o0cpeyrVc.aNgR7gAK.bqhQkEtN53 e1eI14_8qBl9F05iapEsh5ZPEtdKVepdmg4Wrk6NTscEIlKQizLiZEMoRkB. 0p7faYDpF2UFPkECdyDkvs0FsGIr7_pPG9Xm1kWizPgfLuAUlEQmKwn07f2w 1ONEYJX.Zsb39a_tPFWJ5ZMmlwV9i6wZ0r8Li1Sjl42jg6fx4UgWiTVNDeBM TmF.waBG0LVwT2A9AjRL97fM1Ch_cY23mMsV57nr3V7AZVi9YNT1oqIGiQ6q eg5ctoYTFXlfAo9Gz_yHikJoT1E76Vpelhj.i_Zc062K1l0JEAZxvYnLpTRu yhyfanaKtSg-- Received: from [71.14.73.129] by web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 25 Apr 2010 11:51:31 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/348.5 YahooMailWebService/0.8.102.267879 References: <4BBE188B.8070807@lojban.org> <4BC36464.8010707@gmail.com> <6d4d93ea-e660-4ad1-8910-02ddbb96f48c@b6g2000yqi.googlegroups.com> <561527.86938.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <5f7591f2-cb68-4a39-940c-965a0770343f@b33g2000yqc.googlegroups.com> <775037.72228.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <910640.40103.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <971944.73808.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <983500.94659.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 11:51:31 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] What gets into 'lo broda' To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.124 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was afraid that would be the answer to the parenthetical question. At le= ast you give a resolution for one case, maybe both (I'm not sure it is just= conjunction but maybe it is). We'll skip over the other possibilities, whi= ch tend to depend upon what 'broda' is. =20 But about the cimeis. Consider 'lo cimei be lo broda. The "'individuals" = in this case seem to have to be triads (of things among lo broda), and rela= tively impermeable ones. If they are just taken three at a time, then they= turn into just thing and any triad might come out, including ones that nev= er went in. So, if I want re lo cimei be lo broda, I might get just two th= ings or I might get anywhere from three to six, depending, but not two tria= ds and not necessarily ones that went in. [note below] ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, April 25, 2010 10:49:00 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] What gets into 'lo broda' On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 11:38 AM, John E Clifford wr= ote: > > [btw how to read 'broda cimei' (or whichever mVV i mean) "A triad of th= ings that broda": is it the things or the triads that broda?] This is how I would define "PA mei": First we define "pamei", "x1 is one": ko'a pamei .ijo ro'oi da poi ke'a me ko'a zo'u da du ko'a "A is one iff for any X among A: X =3D A" then we define "(n+1)mei" using "(n)mei": ko'a (n+1)mei .ijo su'oi da poi pamei zo'u su'oi de poi (n)mei zo'u ge da na me de gi ro'oi di poi ke'a me ko'a zo'u ga di me da gi di me de "A are n+1 iff there's some X which is one and some Y which are n such that X is not among Y and for every Z among A, Z is X or Z are among Y" [Not quite enough, since for every W among Y, WX is among A but not among = Z nor is it X.] So by induction we now have (n)mei for every n. "su'o PA mei" is then: ko'a su'o(n)mei .ijo su'oi da poi (n)mei zo'u da me ko'a "A are at least n iff there's some X which are n such that X are among A" su'e, me'i, za'u, ro are equally easy. Now, "(n)mei" actually has an x2 place, "x1 are n of x2". In the above definitions the x2 is assumed to be everything, but the restriction to some particular x2 is: ko'a pamei ko'e .ijo ge ko'a me ko'e gi ko'a pamei A is one of B iff A is among B and A is one (as above) Now, "broda cimei" is a tanru, and tanru are never well defined, but for "cimei be lo broda", "x1 are three of the broda", it should mean that x1 are three and that they are among the broda. "broda cimei", as usual for tanru, is ambiguous between "cimei be lo broda" and "broda je cimei" (and possibly any number of other things). Just like "cinfo kalte" can be a hunter of lions of a lion that hunts, "broda cimei" can be a threesome of brodas or a threesome that brodas. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.