From 3Kym2SwoJBlYGICA605F6G4Ay69.0CA9C7zyB4CC4924FCIDG.0CA@groups.bounces.google.com Fri Apr 02 10:28:41 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f160.google.com ([209.85.211.160]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3Kym2SwoJBlYGICA605F6G4Ay69.0CA9C7zyB4CC4924FCIDG.0CA@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NxkfY-0005Rs-LF for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 10:28:40 -0700 Received: by ywh32 with SMTP id 32sf2532768ywh.28 for ; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 10:28:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:received:message-id:subject:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=VqnE178z88Xsg+EEBOnhguFjUvNDs1JPpfAyMQHzruk=; b=QzwC0KzjTGhXINyixVoXuBWuHcyIR1Sqy3srt2FobFkOHuF93Nvr6GURFcLREZLfHe j8CzuCYzFvRy6qLOc1XKTHtgWyg70EcyOfiqsCCl8cRotv+CQ3jweuHUhwmKObwb1gSN 0j/uDr7Z3E54qsSgZGritljsZq5JWSieczgks= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=65pwMnpAyOL2WEB18cxHDgvbN4c7U9+ehRhWyoM2GXFnM1ROytIn4kpufYfSQbpVBn fpClg5vtsY6VkxzVmg1gdoEhiNhNji0jjI/v90euUK9Ncx+dwChqFcNuL7hfQTpctdsd TFFDMoobn9O5rUND8ybV4eO7nR61Hv+g7IDpk= Received: by 10.91.84.19 with SMTP id m19mr361059agl.42.1270229291831; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 10:28:11 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.91.50.27 with SMTP id c27ls464037agk.5.p; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 10:28:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.131.19 with SMTP id e19mr4441337agd.6.1270229290665; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 10:28:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.131.19 with SMTP id e19mr4441329agd.6.1270229290443; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 10:28:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yx0-f183.google.com (mail-yx0-f183.google.com [209.85.210.183]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 19si829975ywh.4.2010.04.02.10.28.09; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 10:28:09 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.183 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.183; Received: by yxe13 with SMTP id 13so1093772yxe.0 for ; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 10:28:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.5.20 with HTTP; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 10:27:49 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201004012357.49645.phma@phma.optus.nu> From: Christopher Doty Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 10:27:49 -0700 Received: by 10.101.26.26 with SMTP id d26mr5661291anj.158.1270229289207; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 10:28:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] So what do we say for Swedish? (was "Summary: Cultural fu'ivla") To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.183 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=suomichris@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: suomichris@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/b7cc2efa3fc3ba64 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/8bafa017a4da8d6c Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636a7d8bf9109f90483444d56 --001636a7d8bf9109f90483444d56 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, there would still be be a much more consistent representation in the code-to-fu'ivla transformation verses autonyms. It won't be precise in every case, but you will have a good shot at a guess. Plus, we can always rethink some of the changes I made to make the matching more precise (e.g., /c/ is just /s/, regardless). The ones I presented most recently all had the three-letter language code and the three letter family code in the same order, and adjacent to each other, except for the c > ck change (as far as I recall; one or two might have slipped through the cracks, but that was my intent, anyway). (Note, though, that the addition of a /t/ to the front of forms like Czech actuall= y gets use closer to the autonym, plus gets a consonant, so might be preferred.) When the need to add an additional vowel or consonant to the middle of the fu'ivla, this phoneme was always chosen based on the sound of the autonym, in an effort to not only make it match the autonym, but also hopefully make people who like the autonym idea a bit happier with these. Specifically responding and summarizing what I just said: 2010/4/2 Jorge Llamb=EDas > > The problem is it only works for a few selected examples, not as a genera= l > rule. I think it works for all examples, not just a select few. Some will need various changes to make them fit (three-consonant codes, for example, will need a buffer vowel, or the addition of an autonym vowel somewhere, for example), but there is no reason that we couldn't do that in a consistent way, so that, say, if you see a buffer vowel, get it out of there when you're looking for the autonym (that was in obvious, I realize, but it coul= d still work for other things). I think, too, that the representation of language family is a great idea, but I wonder about giving ourself more leeway with the form these would take. {-ine}, for example, works pretty well; {-esx} less so. We might be able to get a better match if we used the language family codes as the firs= t part of the fu'ivla and changed them a bit to assure that they had a good cluster in a require position; we thus wouldn't have to tweak the language code as much (if at all, except clusters), making it more recognizable. {-ine}, for example, might become {.inde-}. And, presumably, the language code is more important to be able to look up than the family code. We could also do some other things to make pretty clusters that are more autonymic. For example, the Niger-Congo language family is spread across nearly all of Africa, and is such a large grouping as to not be that useful= . But, as mentioned before, nearly all Bantu languages (a large subset of Niger-Congo) have a prefix for languages of the form ki-, with variants in different languages like iki- and ichi-. Thus, we could use a separate prefix for Bantu languages, say {itci-} or {tci-} making them look more autonymic. Okay, I said I was summarizing by then I said new stuff.... :p Chris --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --001636a7d8bf9109f90483444d56 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, there would still be be a much more consistent representation in the = code-to-fu'ivla transformation verses autonyms. =A0It won't be prec= ise in every case, but you will have a good shot at a guess. =A0Plus, we ca= n always rethink some of the changes I made to make the matching more preci= se (e.g., /c/ is just /s/, regardless).

The ones I presented most recently all had the three-letter = language code and the three letter family code in the same order, and adjac= ent to each other, except for the c > ck change (as far as I recall; one= or two might have slipped through the cracks, but that was my intent, anyw= ay). =A0(Note, though, that the addition of a /t/ to the front of forms lik= e Czech actually gets use closer to the autonym, plus gets a consonant, so = might be preferred.) =A0When the need to add an additional vowel or consona= nt to the middle of the fu'ivla, this phoneme was always chosen based o= n the sound of the autonym, in an effort to not only make it match the auto= nym, but also hopefully make people who like the autonym idea a bit happier= with these.

Specifically responding and summarizing what I just sai= d:

2010/4/2 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com&= gt;
The problem is it only works for a few selected examples, not as a general = rule.

I think it works for all examples, no= t just a select few. Some will need various changes to make them fit (three= -consonant codes, for example, will need a buffer vowel, or the addition of= an autonym vowel somewhere, for example), but there is no reason that we c= ouldn't do that in a consistent way, so that, say, if you see a buffer = vowel, get it out of there when you're looking for the autonym (that wa= s in obvious, I realize, but it could still work for other things).

I think, too, that the representation of language famil= y is a great idea, but I wonder about giving ourself more leeway with the f= orm these would take. =A0{-ine}, for example, works pretty well; {-esx} les= s so. =A0We might be able to get a better match if we used the language fam= ily codes as the first part of the fu'ivla and changed them a bit to as= sure that they had a good cluster in a require position; we thus wouldn'= ;t have to tweak the language code as much (if at all, except clusters), ma= king it more recognizable. =A0{-ine}, for example, might become {.inde-}. = =A0And, presumably, the language code is more important to be able to look = up than the family code.

We could also do some other things to make pretty clust= ers that are more autonymic. =A0For example, the Niger-Congo language famil= y is spread across nearly all of Africa, and is such a large grouping as to= not be that useful. =A0But, as mentioned before, nearly all Bantu language= s (a large subset of Niger-Congo) have a prefix for languages of the form k= i-, with variants in different languages like iki- and ichi-. =A0Thus, we c= ould use a separate prefix for Bantu languages, say {itci-} or {tci-} makin= g them look more autonymic.

Okay, I said I was summarizing by then I said new stuff= .... :p

Chris

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