From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCyh9beBBoEbwAjLA@googlegroups.com Mon Apr 26 05:15:07 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f137.google.com ([209.85.211.137]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O6NDL-0005hC-Pk; Mon, 26 Apr 2010 05:15:07 -0700 Received: by ywh1 with SMTP id 1sf4924990ywh.28 for ; Mon, 26 Apr 2010 05:14:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=r+Ne19HmSDFPFbYRI1gvUu0lYmk3ZzCcmQTrK9+iwFI=; b=2k8afKVIak0L1EJWzUhmD0MhAgdGH17+8vRyrV9BvqPb4g25KvKtIYlhdd0EHCen0p 0scN/pQFjIxldDYVKA8VJyGKvU4Q/+dd4r3ICDRRkX2VYvB5Q1wLjYFIiD23zW1WPag7 kzwAraGb6vVeEyqsP2YeZ6pJ3dr3a1LFZBmB8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=nJwcYlwRGA/TikYvaHn5giID9GBRMRigiXYnT1h4/qWgolfouAujHhDdcg0lh3Q42s H162slffrcb0n/FSRVGREi9az0Xr5yqIyllBcBZgIn20AVFgWxSdRZXATsgMSSnbH113 omJUvmxSR9DqKWuZHN2du2bn0I2MjsyI4gv2w= Received: by 10.91.93.10 with SMTP id v10mr936626agl.18.1272284082073; Mon, 26 Apr 2010 05:14:42 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.91.66.23 with SMTP id t23ls44642480agk.6.p; Mon, 26 Apr 2010 05:14:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.91.58.18 with SMTP id l18mr1639652agk.1.1272284080524; Mon, 26 Apr 2010 05:14:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.91.58.18 with SMTP id l18mr1639651agk.1.1272284080475; Mon, 26 Apr 2010 05:14:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.117]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id 25si447583ywh.3.2010.04.26.05.14.39; Mon, 26 Apr 2010 05:14:39 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.117 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.117; Received: (qmail 6602 invoked by uid 60001); 26 Apr 2010 12:14:39 -0000 Message-ID: <935949.5919.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: g6zkRvcVM1lam.kd21F70vxZNu7Qamm0Wd1NOLLINPFDwYV Aj7kc10emOV.8WQ5y8RQPd4gAtujQ_cvgDYKkWaxNT8dVA_cpp8rc.kIGjDX h28SKrdX9D5Z5mGb3xOf8XtccUC9ctidWwYGzWfvlOfqnA85_G0ktoXkSiCm ueFN97yj9rfsPccAuUvVL7k_C5yAxiPLQO_ph3WQyhGV7Y.Rt8NcTUCePuNQ lvj7JrhFv_AoLJPUDjznyxYk.aCQKw4aFOhX_OnUbakb2PFlswDO7.gpZnpH uYtJBJsMj4Ykm8R8uNwSfe3py.wi87KZVJNtdwJyxSmd.MHa5KSTk.03ml08 vU3GRL88kYcHnw4qdGVg9NIrnMFSaYxOXBOsQfw-- Received: from [71.14.73.129] by web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 26 Apr 2010 05:14:38 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/348.5 YahooMailWebService/0.8.102.267879 References: <4BBE188B.8070807@lojban.org> <910640.40103.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <971944.73808.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <983500.94659.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <770120.37196.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <733078.90670.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <497776.6427.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 05:14:38 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] What gets into 'lo broda' To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.117 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, now I am confused yet again. In my rethinking, I figured out that lo= cimei be lo broda would be a set of things that realized 'cimei be lo brod= a', that is, for every thing among lo cimei lo broda ther are two other thi= ngs among lo cimei lo broda and thus all three are among lo broda. So lo c= imei be lo broda must have at least three members but might have any number= at all greater than that. Now it would seem that lo ci lo broda, since it= has an internal quantifier does have exactly three members of lo broda, so= it is not the same. So ultimately the secret of getting groups of the right size in is to get a= way from 'lo' altogether and quantify directly on the predicates, where we = get satisfaction, not mere realization, Or, equivalently, by definition, w= ork with 'loi' or 'lo'i' depending on how tight a structure you want. ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, April 25, 2010 6:13:37 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] What gets into 'lo broda' On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 7:46 PM, John E Clifford wro= te: > OK, so I am not getting it. 'lo cimei be lo broda' is not some trios out= of lo broda but just a trio out of lo broda, not in any sense different fr= om (what used to be written as) 'ci lo broda'. "ci lo broda" is an incomplete expression. It is an operator lacking its operand. It means "three and only three of the referents of 'lo broda' are such that: ..." "lo cimei be lo broda", on the other hand, is a referring expression. Its referents, whatever they are, are three of the referents of "lo broda". It is equivalent to "lo ci lo broda". The distinction between an operator with scope over a bridi, and a simple referring expression is important. > So how do we get references to cases of several selection, each of them a= trio, say? By quantifying over gunma/girzu/bende etc instead of over brodas. "re gunma be ci lo broda" is "two groups of three of the brodas are such that: ...". (If you like using "loi" or "lu'o" as shorthand for "lo gunma be", I don't mind, but I prefer to spell it out.) mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.