From lojban+bncCIzD1o6fERCcwuveBBoEX2y8dQ@googlegroups.com Fri Apr 30 06:55:08 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f137.google.com ([209.85.211.137]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O7qgF-0000Mt-IX; Fri, 30 Apr 2010 06:55:07 -0700 Received: by ywh1 with SMTP id 1sf179618ywh.28 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 2010 06:54:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received:received-spf:received:received :x-authentication-warning:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject :references:in-reply-to:mime-version:user-agent:x-originating-ip :x-remote-browser:x-originating-user :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-disposition; bh=RJQYrsTuoSV8zs+QZUWv+LUgoyhpEq1yDoPCjyqlxYQ=; b=wJZqn+pg5TtUNXcSq3PFg0itZ8Ob6crzQDqI6m17qGogIEQLqsSteOtRN4duiQ6yic sHV0u5WCymhOkJa8ELT+8CH1xVS1y7k7wDrobmI/0PnkLLVsMe2PQz0f+QkdxGVNBY6d 7k/Tb0Sdf5dKrEEc9ZobRPU0oOBs9mYyRXRAY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-authentication-warning:message-id:date :from:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:mime-version:user-agent :x-originating-ip:x-remote-browser:x-originating-user :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-disposition; b=s7CCYcA+Ca2BiKWbH9rZFmcOr0MNq9YgWzngeTCg4gO50whxcStpHZMxNxfDTY9JAY eIlkNdikE8SuzRRGf/URCTKzey8u2tqmpkpVCtkGtsG2KuaDXX8sVuF1katTFi1EKpnu XvD/8tR2NZ64vDdWKyd6T0IAnaRMXeqMQlSWM= Received: by 10.91.121.9 with SMTP id y9mr442878agm.33.1272635677053; Fri, 30 Apr 2010 06:54:37 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.187.210 with SMTP id cx18ls38318562ibb.0.p; Fri, 30 Apr 2010 06:54:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.251.14 with SMTP id y14mr1485699ybh.12.1272635675530; Fri, 30 Apr 2010 06:54:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.83.37 with SMTP id g37mr77812rvb.26.1272602374952; Thu, 29 Apr 2010 21:39:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.83.37 with SMTP id g37mr77811rvb.26.1272602374915; Thu, 29 Apr 2010 21:39:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pyramid-03.kattare.com (pyramid-03.kattare.com [65.212.180.92]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 19si262516pzk.7.2010.04.29.21.39.34; Thu, 29 Apr 2010 21:39:34 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of brian@buildsoftware.com designates 65.212.180.92 as permitted sender) client-ip=65.212.180.92; Received: from pyramid-05.kattare.com (pyramid-05.kattare.com [204.13.10.6]) by pyramid-03.kattare.com (8.13.8/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o3U4dTE5007984 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 29 Apr 2010 21:39:29 -0700 Received: (from www@localhost) by pyramid-05.kattare.com (8.13.8/8.12.11/Submit) id o3U4dSCU013720; Fri, 30 Apr 2010 00:39:28 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: pyramid-05.kattare.com: www set sender to brian@buildsoftware.com using -f Received: from ip72-209-211-235.dc.dc.cox.net (ip72-209-211-235.dc.dc.cox.net [72.209.211.235]) by www.kattare.com (Horde Framework) with HTTP; Fri, 30 Apr 2010 00:39:28 -0400 Message-ID: <20100430003928.15826pwll4fkhjwg@www.kattare.com> Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 00:39:28 -0400 From: "Brian D. Eubanks" To: lojban@googlegroups.com, Oren Subject: Re: [lojban] Questions about jorne References: <20100419003042.18292qbr1ugbmnqc@www.kattare.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 4.2.2 X-Originating-IP: 72.209.211.235 X-Remote-Browser: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; en-US; rv:1.9.2.3) Gecko/20100401 Firefox/3.6.3 X-Originating-User: eubanksb X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of brian@buildsoftware.com designates 65.212.180.92 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=brian@buildsoftware.com X-Original-Sender: brian@buildsoftware.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp=Yes; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline coi korbi This was a busy week for me, so now it was my turn to delay in getting back to you. We are pretty much thinking along the same lines, and your description codified the issues quite well. Interesting idea to call the parts jorne, sejorne, and tejorne. A web front-end or web service would be a great first step. I am very close to setting up a simple lojban text-to-XML parser service. Getting triples out of the XML would be pretty easy, although the parse tree coming out of RATS is extremely deep. I see two immediate use cases for the jorne web service. The first is a public parser REST API that could be used for Lojban mashups. Lojban in, XML out. Alternate output format of the web service would be RDF, as either RDF/XML or N3 serialization. I do have a jorne.org hosted server, and can have it run the first implementation of the API. The second use case would be the web service that stores lojban-derived triples, and allows simple queries in SPARQL and eventually Lojban. These could be the same API but different features of it. I am on the East Coast of the U.S., near Washington, D.C.. The Summer School would be fun to attend. I do plan to attend the Semantic Technologies Conference during June, in San Francisco. More later. mu'o mi'e iuban Quoting Oren : > coi uiban > > Sorry for not getting back to you sooner! > > [snippet A] > > On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 12:30, Brian D. Eubanks > wrote: >> >> The project is currently focused on these tasks: >> 1. use Lojban text to add statements to knowledge bases, or ask questions >> about the content > > 2. describe data contained within knowledge bases, using Lojban text > > > [snippet B] > > >> SKOS is also an excellent way to implement a Semantic-Web-friendly >> thesaurus. > > > [snippet C] > > ...using technologies such as in the links given (perhaps starting with a >> Wordnet implementation?) would bring great benefit to the Lojban community. > > > > So the way I see it, there are really three separate tasks here: [A] lojban > knowledge authoring and extraction, [B] describing lojban using SKOS > and [C] describing Wordnet using lojban, all of which I think are brilliant > and awesome. > > As for task [A], knowledge authoring and extraction, I think it has obvious > applications with the other two, but could stand alone: lojban is already > parseable (well, you know) so there's nothing stopping us from having an > online lojban submission form for entering parseable knowledge (that is, any > lojban text). In fact its frighteningly similar to the recent page > http://lojban.org/cgi-bin/corpus, but optimally I think there should be > parser validation upon submission. Searching it for completions of queries > is step two. Of the applications mentioned this one, i think, is the easiest > to implement: it's just a web-based parser [submission] and search > [extraction]. > > When I say knowledge extraction, I'm thinking something like this: > >>> mi klama ma //input query > mi klama lo zarci > mi pu klama lo jarbu > ... //output > > Task [B], describing Lojban with SKOS, I think is slightly harder if done > properly, and very valuable, as it would extend the utility of [A]. > Searching for { ma danlu } could give a list of all animals, and could also > search for all knowledge related to animals. > > - Start with the current TeX thesaurus from the lojban website. > - Nice lojban uris. The way things work in Lojbanistan, it seems, is that > the keys to the castle are available as soon as there is proof of concept. > Once there's a queryable web interface, of the lojban corpus or some > translated datastores, I'm sure Robin or whoever will let > www.lojban.com/valsi#gismu be used for this. I have a domain name on a > shared host if there's need for development space for proof of concept. > - Immediately it's a perfect thesaurus format and so one > trivial-to-implement but crucial-to-have feature is importing the latest > jbovlaste xml dump for adding new gloss words as prefLabels etc. > - References to other RDF schemas, not just wordnet [ > http://www.w3.org/TR/wordnet-rdf/]. For example, animals can be likewise > translated to http://ontologi.es/biol/ns and linked to dbpedia pages, > yadda yadda. This extends the domain of part A, as you put it, > exponentially: open data would be searchable in a brief and robust form. > This is what lojban dreams of when it says it may someday be used > to talk to > machines. > > Now we could have input like: >>> lo cribe cu xabju ma //where do bears live > ...//returns habitat information from all dbpedia entries referenced in > 'cribe' > > As for task [C], describing Wordnet synsets using lojban, I think this is > the hardest, not merely because of the sheer number of synsets, but because > of the mandate for precision-- synsets should have unique lojban terms. > Semantic granularity on WordNet is pretty small, and our mere seven thousand > or so current valsi are insufficient. For the part [B] task (referring to > other URIs that a single lojban word *could* describe), some degree of > polysemy/vagueness is fine, but for the task of describing wordnet, I think > the best implementation has a one-to-one correspondence to lojban words. > > This obviously entails a huge number of ad-hoc lujvo/tanru (ideally) or > fi'uvla (suboptimal) that need to be created for similar shades of related > synsets, or just technical or cultural words that have no lojban equivalent > or approximate. I envision this only as feasible in a wiki-like, folksonomy > web frontend where multiple people can help assign new lujvo to unassigned > synsets. A great byproduct of this would be critical examination of the > shortcomings of current gismu, and possibly accelerated specification of > vague/poorly-defined terms and newly coined lojban terms. > > ---intermission--- > > I have a little proposal to distinguish these three tasks as I have > described them ([A],[B], and [C]). While they are all part of the same > project, I think they each play functionally distinct roles; namely a human > portal, an extendable description, and the holy grail of lojban > dictionaries. My proposal is that these three tasks be called jorne, sejorne > and tejorne respectively. jorne is still the name of the whole idea (since > the other two work through or enhance it), and > > 1) the 'connect' {lo jorne} refers to the user front end and basic > input/query portion > 2) the 'things-connected' {lo se jorne} refers to the linked > searchable/translatable ontologies/schema > 3) the 'connection types' {lo te jorne} refers to the clear definition of > synsets found in wordnet using lojban > > Or, in laymans terms, a web front-end, a thesaurus and a dictionary. > > Additionally, while the first two may only be of particular interest to > lojbanists, I think the third may have even greater implications as an > extension to Wordnet since it can do something Wordnet does not attempt to > do: provide cardinality information. That is, lets say we want to use > Wordnet to annotate a text unambiguously: that's totally possible. But if we > wanted to then search that text (say, looking for query completions) theres > no way to explicitly mark what lexeme falls in what argument number for a > multi-argument phrase. Lojban, however, makes every bridi immediately > accessible as a series of one or more triples for each sumti. Of course, > this application is light-years off and might just be crazytalk. But that's > why I would keep description of wordnet and description of lojban as two > distinct objectives. > > co'o mi'e korbi > > btw, are you located in the united states by any chance? you might be > interested in the North American Summer School in Logic, Language and > Information . > > >> >> Quoting Oren : >> >> The jorne page on sourceforge [http://jorne.sourceforge.net/] doesn't >>> mention OWL or appear to have any source code... is there a newer >>> specification or codebase that I'm missing? The PEG parser? >>> >>> As for the ideas proposed on the page, I still need to be sold. There >>> seems >>> to be overlap with the W3C incubator projects for representing Wordnet in >>> RDF/OWL http://www.w3.org/TR/wordnet-rdf/, and quite frankly, lojban's >>> minimal and prescriptive vocabulary doesn't seem to offer much application >>> here. >>> >>> Two separate overlapping W3C incubator projects seem to be more >>> appropriate >>> for semantic querying, Common Web Language (semantic representation) >>> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/cwl/XGR-cwl-20080331/ and Emotional >>> Markup >>> Language http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/emotion/XGR-emotionml-20081120/ >>> . >>> >>> Lojban, as a human language, can't offer what these robust proposals >>> describe-- that is, you can't really argue that lojban is any more >>> 'readable' than these languages, nor believe that it would be briefer or >>> more thorough; but it may be fun to try and define the entire lojban >>> vocabulary using these technologies. Or maybe that's what you meant all >>> along? >>> >>> co'o mi'e korbi >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 19:49, Brian Eubanks >> >wrote: >>> >>> Hi Oren, >>>> >>>> We corresponded last year about the Jorne (Lojban RDF) project I am >>>> trying >>>> to get started. >>>> >>>> The idea of using a Wordnet type approach is excellent. In fact, I would >>>> love to see a LojWordNet in association with the Jorne OWL mapping. >>>> >>>> Are you still interested in working on an OWL mapping for Lojban gismu? >>>> If >>>> so, I would like you to join the Sourceforge Jorne project. The growing >>>> amount of linked data makes this a great time to do this. >>>> >>>> I am working with the PEG parser to import simple sentences into an RDF >>>> triple store with the hope of converting between SPARQL and Lojban >>>> queries. >>>> My Lojban is not even baby talk level yet, which is where I could use >>>> your >>>> help too. I've been a lurker in the Lojban space but haven't spent time >>>> to >>>> learn it. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Brian Eubanks >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> >>>> On Apr 15, 2010, at 3:52 AM, Oren wrote: >>>> >>>> I like the idea of categories (or... tags!), I think the wiki is the >>>> >>>>> place for it to happen, and I also think we shouldn't start from >>>>> scratch. The thesaurus on the wiki page already segregates all gismu >>>>> into hierarchical categories. We can make a page template that allows >>>>> people to add "lujvo requests" to a category. A sister project to >>>>> consider would be fleshing out that same ontology with the existing >>>>> specialized lujvo lists and the lujvo flat file. >>>>> >>>>> I would also think that English/natlang glosses for the categories >>>>> should be optional while lojban section titles be mandatory and >>>>> default, for clarity. >>>>> >>>>> Back to the original topic of finding a minimal wordlist for a >>>>> dictionary, I think the real forward-thinking approach would be to >>>>> find some sufficiently open project similar to EuroWordNet [a >>>>> multilingual WordNet], and then extracting a set number of unique >>>>> *syslinks* (word senses), so that when we sit down to define 'spring' >>>>> we don't have to remember jumping, metal coils and le printemps all by >>>>> our erring-human selves. >>>>> >>>>> We could either use an arbitrary limit and go by frequency, and/or go >>>>> for all syslinks that contain an arbitrary number of constituent >>>>> languages. For example, only bother with 50% of all word senses that >>>>> appear in three or more languages. >>>>> >>>>> co'o mi'e korbi >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 15:13, Lindar wrote: >>>>> >>>>> My absolutely fantastic idea that donri/kribacr started and never >>>>>> finished (or never even started, but definitely came up before I >>>>>> thought of it [but it's still my idea]) is/was/will be to have groups >>>>>> of people select topics, and then go through and come up with as many >>>>>> words related to that topic as possible. I got this idea one day as I >>>>>> was sticking masking tape to pretty much everything around my >>>>>> apartment and writing the Lojban word for it in sharpie. I came across >>>>>> the simple fact that jvs didn't have words for "pot", "kitchen", >>>>>> "frying pan", etc., so I came up with words for them, and I think at >>>>>> least "kitchen" (jupku'a) is up there. I tried this again with >>>>>> computer terminology and it completely failed as nobody could agree >>>>>> properly on things (like "window", on which I still harshly/ >>>>>> obnoxiously/rudely/insultingly disagree with xorxes). >>>>>> >>>>>> Rather than having one person sit through some big gehorsenshitfesten >>>>>> (parden my German) trying to pick out the most common concepts in the >>>>>> universe, why don't we use the wiki idea and create "conversational >>>>>> categories" under which we can place words (probably a lot of fu'ivla >>>>>> and lujvo) relevant to the topic. This will generate a much larger and >>>>>> relevant body of information, and it's a -much- less daunting task. >>>>>> For example, I am a recording engineer, so I would be likely to start >>>>>> a "recording technology" topic, and possibly contribute to the "music" >>>>>> topic as I would be more likely than anybody else to need/use words >>>>>> like "Hertz"/"kHz", "microphone", "nearfield monitors", "synthesizer", >>>>>> "MIDI", "mixing console", "bass", "treble", and I would probably be >>>>>> more qualified to determine what kind of terminology in Lojban is the >>>>>> most suitable. I'd also be fairly interested in the "kitchen and >>>>>> cooking" topic, and I think a great many a newbie would be very >>>>>> interested in the "household objects" topic, which would probably >>>>>> include a pointer to the "kitchen and cooking" topic and maybe even a >>>>>> "bathroom and hygiene" topic. This way people find what interests them >>>>>> and contribute to topics that they enjoy, which doesn't necessarily >>>>>> give an accurate picture of common usage based on an average through >>>>>> world cultures, but definitely gives a good sampling of words to use >>>>>> in conversation for the types of conversation that people learning >>>>>> Lojban would have. It works as a double edged sword (of handiness) in >>>>>> that we have people that are going to enjoy working because they're >>>>>> learning how to talk about things that interest them by contributing >>>>>> (which means things are more likely to get added, being that it's fun >>>>>> and not a chore) -AND- that we have quick 'topic reference' >>>>>> dictionaries so you can just leave the list open and peak through to >>>>>> make it easier to carry on conversations about what an arse your >>>>>> government leader is without having to poke through a list for ten >>>>>> minutes while the conversation has already passed because you wanted a >>>>>> word for "idiot" and jvs only had "stupid" as a gloss word for >>>>>> tolmencre. (Bad example, you get the picture.) >>>>>> >>>>>> Perhaps we can quickly brainstorm a few major topics just to have >>>>>> something up on a wiki? >>>>>> >>>>>> household items >>>>>> kitchen and cooking >>>>>> bathroom and hygiene >>>>>> sports and spectating >>>>>> automotive and driving >>>>>> computer ((hot topic, prone to arguments)) >>>>>> music >>>>>> politics and law >>>>>> school and education >>>>>> work and the workplace >>>>>> friends and family >>>>>> >>>>>> The idea would be to have a big list of topics (and possibly >>>>>> subtopics), and on the pages of each we have brief glosses with Lojban >>>>>> words, with links to a page detailing the place structure, examples of >>>>>> usage, actual usage example if available, and potentially a relevant >>>>>> image (for those that learn by seeing and not reading). >>>>>> >>>>>> Perhaps under "household items" is "garage", and on the page for that >>>>>> it includes a little link for "see section: automotive and driving", >>>>>> and perhaps even "garage" is also located under "automotive and >>>>>> driving" or somesuch. >>>>>> >>>>>> Neatonifty idea, right? >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups >>>>>> "lojban" group. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> . >>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups >>>>> "lojban" group. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> . >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "lojban" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> . >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >>> >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.