From 3YS-2SwcJBpI0K0A9GE28w47.yA87A5xw92AA2702DAGBE.yA8@groups.bounces.google.com Fri Apr 02 10:55:07 2010 Received: from mail-yx0-f146.google.com ([209.85.210.146]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3YS-2SwcJBpI0K0A9GE28w47.yA87A5xw92AA2702DAGBE.yA8@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Nxl5C-0007b4-JF for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 10:55:06 -0700 Received: by yxe10 with SMTP id 10sf1976362yxe.16 for ; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 10:54:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=lHF/XG/37V49JCoXwi0PLJcAb16uqB2xJjgvga8cO4o=; b=glx+6p+UBSQpvir3FNO02r2XHu1vMbg6scLvbfmTkZuVvxE5YXJPW/LRkiZzNQHDSS bFJU6og8CjRToRGXA+HCa+OblWpvfWYEd8AAHc1tWD9o4jwlxKsp5N3ZML1+qzdBeR4o qnP/15xOTXygaD/xBFJv5m2res/Ly+EJt3k7o= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=YNZY7DeMkWS4kzYjDfUx49epqXEMxeTLrvDnUfnSRrcyB07IAeqxw7iqCGmiBQIGCS RpoMSr4QV4lipPiDY5Meyra+capPYax+1qx0aO7Aa3nuxU8Ii4PWNACCm3pl4Svppkkp a5IU/TA+UXS47X4h9DuDrw8b008nRwk4jvUjU= Received: by 10.91.203.22 with SMTP id f22mr361786agq.59.1270230881412; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 10:54:41 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.32.206 with SMTP id e14ls1066475bkd.2.p; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 10:54:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.163.19 with SMTP id y19mr157819bkx.2.1270230879169; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 10:54:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.163.19 with SMTP id y19mr157818bkx.2.1270230879108; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 10:54:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f48.google.com (mail-ww0-f48.google.com [74.125.82.48]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id a10si10744265bkc.5.2010.04.02.10.54.37; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 10:54:38 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.48 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.48; Received: by wwb39 with SMTP id 39so470565wwb.7 for ; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 10:54:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.30.146 with HTTP; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 10:54:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201004012357.49645.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 11:54:37 -0600 Received: by 10.216.90.202 with SMTP id e52mr1371956wef.150.1270230877775; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 10:54:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] So what do we say for Swedish? (was "Summary: Cultural fu'ivla") From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.48 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/b7cc2efa3fc3ba64 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/85cf556fa46a502d Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6d7ee5740a9cd048344ac1a --0016e6d7ee5740a9cd048344ac1a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Christopher, I can see you've been putting a lot of thought into this. I appreciate all the effort, and I look forward to seeing the finished result= . I don't see the point to placing the family half in front of the language half, though. As long as it's the same half every time, I don't see how it would be any easier to look up the language. 2010/4/2 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 2:27 PM, Christopher Doty > wrote: > > > > I think it works for all examples, not just a select few. > > OK, I'll hold back my skepticism until I see the full list. Or at > least an unbiased sample, let's say aaa, aab, aba, abb, baa, bab, bba, > bbb. > (Not sure if all of them are in use, if not, replace a vowel or a > consonant by another vowel or consonant.) > > > Some will need > > various changes to make them fit (three-consonant codes, for example, > will > > need a buffer vowel, or the addition of an autonym vowel somewhere, for > > example), but there is no reason that we couldn't do that in a consiste= nt > > way, so that, say, if you see a buffer vowel, get it out of there when > > you're looking for the autonym (that was in obvious, I realize, but it > could > > still work for other things). > > How will you tell a buffer vowel apart from a vowel coming from the code? > > > I think, too, that the representation of language family is a great ide= a, > > but I wonder about giving ourself more leeway with the form these would > > take. {-ine}, for example, works pretty well; {-esx} less so. We migh= t > be > > able to get a better match if we used the language family codes as the > first > > part of the fu'ivla and changed them a bit to assure that they had a go= od > > cluster in a require position; we thus wouldn't have to tweak the > language > > code as much (if at all, except clusters), making it more recognizable. > > {-ine}, for example, might become {.inde-}. And, presumably, the > language > > code is more important to be able to look up than the family code. > > That starts to look a bit like what I proposed, with the prefix > "bangu-" replaced by something coming from the language family. > > > We could also do some other things to make pretty clusters that are mor= e > > autonymic. For example, the Niger-Congo language family is spread acro= ss > > nearly all of Africa, and is such a large grouping as to not be that > useful. > > But, as mentioned before, nearly all Bantu languages (a large subset o= f > > Niger-Congo) have a prefix for languages of the form ki-, with variants > in > > different languages like iki- and ichi-. Thus, we could use a separate > > prefix for Bantu languages, say {itci-} or {tci-} making them look more > > autonymic. > > ".itci" won't work, as the ".i" will fall off, "tci-" might, but > depending on what follows, you could end up with lujvo forms. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0016e6d7ee5740a9cd048344ac1a Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Christopher, I can see you've been putting a lot of thought into t= his. I appreciate all the effort, and I look forward to seeing the finished= result.
=A0
I don't see the point to placing the family half in front of the l= anguage half, though. As long as it's the same half every time, I don&#= 39;t see how it would be any easier to look up the language.

2010/4/2 Jorge Llamb=EDas <= jjllambias@gmail.com>=
On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 2:27 PM, Christopher Doty <suomichris@gmail.com> wrote:
= >
> I think it works for all examples, not just a select few.

OK, I'll hold back my skepticism until I see the full list. O= r at
least an unbiased sample, let's say aaa, aab, aba, abb, baa, ba= b, bba,
bbb.
(Not sure if all of them are in use, if not, replace a v= owel or a
consonant by another vowel or consonant.)

> Some will need
> various changes to make t= hem fit (three-consonant codes, for example, will
> need a buffer vow= el, or the addition of an autonym vowel somewhere, for
> example), bu= t there is no reason that we couldn't do that in a consistent
> way, so that, say, if you see a buffer vowel, =A0get it out of there w= hen
> you're looking for the autonym (that was in obvious, I real= ize, but it could
> still work for other things).

How wi= ll you tell a buffer vowel apart from a vowel coming from the code?

> I think, too, that the representation of languag= e family is a great idea,
> but I wonder about giving ourself more le= eway with the form these would
> take. =A0{-ine}, for example, works = pretty well; {-esx} less so. =A0We might be
> able to get a better match if we used the language family codes as the= first
> part of the fu'ivla and changed them a bit to assure tha= t they had a good
> cluster in a require position; we thus wouldn'= ;t have to tweak the language
> code as much (if at all, except clusters), making it more recognizable= .
> =A0{-ine}, for example, might become {.inde-}. =A0And, presumably= , the language
> code is more important to be able to look up than th= e family code.

That starts to look a bit like what I proposed, with the prefix"bangu-" replaced by something coming from the language family.=

> We could also do some other things to make prett= y clusters that are more
> autonymic. =A0For example, the Niger-Congo= language family is spread across
> nearly all of Africa, and is such= a large grouping as to not be that useful.
> =A0But, as mentioned before, nearly all Bantu languages (a large subse= t of
> Niger-Congo) have a prefix for languages of the form ki-, with= variants in
> different languages like iki- and ichi-. =A0Thus, we c= ould use a separate
> prefix for Bantu languages, say {itci-} or {tci-} making them look mor= e
> autonymic.

".itci" won't work, as the = ".i" will fall off, "tci-" might, but
depending on w= hat follows, you could end up with lujvo forms.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to t= he Google Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send e= mail to lojban@googlegroups.com<= /a>.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For= more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?h= l=3Den.




--
mu'= o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu=

--
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