From 3WTC2SwoJBos7931xrw6x7v1px0.r3103yqp2v33v0tv63947.r31@groups.bounces.google.com Fri Apr 02 10:59:35 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3WTC2SwoJBos7931xrw6x7v1px0.r3103yqp2v33v0tv63947.r31@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Nxl9E-0007sh-PY for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 10:59:33 -0700 Received: by gwb1 with SMTP id 1sf2738649gwb.16 for ; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 10:59:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:received:message-id:subject:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=2f6X0ysTwZwQkPuUaZBLU2XPdvSEpyn1+ZEyJV131Ao=; b=afwL9jlSNzSjDtGAFla+/SLOOGafaJp10qGiazGUFXm2/mMBNQrg8ZNCR4s8IeyDvl cpMOWcWXweKatZPnP+OxDnyze/HmncNNwphoSh2dVi9VyROiuAgV003VZfRhB5CW1lki JLq1cL94G8yB4z4WJMNP5br9E+SsdStDSy/uk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=SfAQwzbdlio0QyktVzIJ7UKknVBPqouSC4FbMqkM9rymx9RdGftc5BrSaRU19LKhVL 8GthZiZwGsYRAq89w3cSaJH/yFw0PHYwoCNdZ1SXggr4+kxDFwME8dLv47MQvICB6DAE thLjLsm2u2FMtF1hTs5NP5LdRNruOY3uwOHHE= Received: by 10.101.141.11 with SMTP id t11mr84195ann.25.1270231129482; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 10:58:49 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.91.91.6 with SMTP id t6ls470475agl.0.p; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 10:58:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.131.19 with SMTP id e19mr4485015agd.6.1270231128755; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 10:58:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.131.19 with SMTP id e19mr4485013agd.6.1270231128690; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 10:58:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gx0-f209.google.com (mail-gx0-f209.google.com [209.85.217.209]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 12si739097gxk.6.2010.04.02.10.58.47; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 10:58:47 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.209 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.217.209; Received: by mail-gx0-f209.google.com with SMTP id 1so1783310gxk.16 for ; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 10:58:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.5.20 with HTTP; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 10:58:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201004012357.49645.phma@phma.optus.nu> From: Christopher Doty Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 10:58:26 -0700 Received: by 10.101.132.31 with SMTP id j31mr6492913ann.121.1270231126193; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 10:58:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] So what do we say for Swedish? (was "Summary: Cultural fu'ivla") To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.209 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=suomichris@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: suomichris@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/b7cc2efa3fc3ba64 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/b453d418113369eb Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e68ea06b0f66cc048344bb8f --0016e68ea06b0f66cc048344bb8f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2010/4/2 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 2:27 PM, Christopher Doty > wrote: > > > > I think it works for all examples, not just a select few. > > OK, I'll hold back my skepticism until I see the full list. Or at > least an unbiased sample, let's say aaa, aab, aba, abb, baa, bab, bba, > bbb. > (Not sure if all of them are in use, if not, replace a vowel or a > consonant by another vowel or consonant.) > Ok. I will say that the sample I have presenting is not really that biased= . There are some language families I haven't done yet, for example, but I made sure to pull ones that it does work for. Keep in mind, though, that the intent here was to establish the fu'ivla for the languages included in the first iteration of the ISO codes (between 200 and 300 somewhere, depending on how we slice it). I agree that things could get messier as we go on and use this for other languages, although at least one person suggested that, for languages with smaller numbers of speakers where there is no agreed fu'ivla, cmene are used. I'm not sure I like this, except as = a stop gap. Nonetheless, I take your point, and can pick some out and see what they would look like. > > Some will need > > various changes to make them fit (three-consonant codes, for example, > will > > need a buffer vowel, or the addition of an autonym vowel somewhere, for > > example), but there is no reason that we couldn't do that in a consiste= nt > > way, so that, say, if you see a buffer vowel, get it out of there when > > you're looking for the autonym (that was in obvious, I realize, but it > could > > still work for other things). > > How will you tell a buffer vowel apart from a vowel coming from the code? I was thinking specifically the vowel {y}, although there are other possibilities that would be more complex. I haven't encountered one of those yet, but there are some that are messy (Turkic is trk, for example). > > I think, too, that the representation of language family is a great ide= a, > > but I wonder about giving ourself more leeway with the form these would > > take. {-ine}, for example, works pretty well; {-esx} less so. We migh= t > be > > able to get a better match if we used the language family codes as the > first > > part of the fu'ivla and changed them a bit to assure that they had a go= od > > cluster in a require position; we thus wouldn't have to tweak the > language > > code as much (if at all, except clusters), making it more recognizable. > > {-ine}, for example, might become {.inde-}. And, presumably, the > language > > code is more important to be able to look up than the family code. > > That starts to look a bit like what I proposed, with the prefix > "bangu-" replaced by something coming from the language family. Indeed, although hopefully with something a bit more pronounceable. Plus, even if people don't make use of the family names, having a limited set of prefixes/suffixes that can code languages still makes the words identifiabl= e as languages, but more learnable, since the starts wouldn't be identical fo= r every language. > > We could also do some other things to make pretty clusters that are mor= e > > autonymic. For example, the Niger-Congo language family is spread acro= ss > > nearly all of Africa, and is such a large grouping as to not be that > useful. > > But, as mentioned before, nearly all Bantu languages (a large subset o= f > > Niger-Congo) have a prefix for languages of the form ki-, with variants > in > > different languages like iki- and ichi-. Thus, we could use a separate > > prefix for Bantu languages, say {itci-} or {tci-} making them look more > > autonymic. > > ".itci" won't work, as the ".i" will fall off, "tci-" might, but > depending on what follows, you could end up with lujvo forms. Ah, right. And I just asked you about that. Must have a hole in my brain somewhere... .kris. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0016e68ea06b0f66cc048344bb8f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2010/4/2 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 2:27 PM, Christopher Doty <suomichris@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I think it works for all examples, not just a select few.

OK, I'll hold back my skepticism until I see the full list. Or at=
least an unbiased sample, let's say aaa, aab, aba, abb, baa, bab, bba,<= br> bbb.
(Not sure if all of them are in use, if not, replace a vowel or a
consonant by another vowel or consonant.)

Ok. =A0I will say that the sample I have presenting is not really that b= iased. =A0There are some language families I haven't done yet, for exam= ple, but I made sure to pull ones that it does work for. =A0Keep in mind, t= hough, that the intent here was to establish the fu'ivla for the langua= ges included in the first iteration of the ISO codes (between 200 and 300 s= omewhere, depending on how we slice it). I agree that things could get mess= ier as we go on and use this for other languages, although at least one per= son suggested that, for languages with smaller numbers of speakers where th= ere is no agreed fu'ivla, cmene are used. =A0I'm not sure I like th= is, except as a stop gap.

Nonetheless, I take your point, and can pick some out a= nd see what they would look like.
=A0
> Some will need
> various changes to make them fit (three-consonant codes, for example, = will
> need a buffer vowel, or the addition of an autonym vowel somewhere, fo= r
> example), but there is no reason that we couldn't do that in a con= sistent
> way, so that, say, if you see a buffer vowel, =A0get it out of there w= hen
> you're looking for the autonym (that was in obvious, I realize, bu= t it could
> still work for other things).

How will you tell a buffer vowel apart from a vowel coming from the c= ode?

I was thinking specifically the vowel = {y}, although there are other possibilities that would be more complex. =A0= I haven't encountered one of those yet, but there are some that are mes= sy (Turkic is trk, for example).
=A0
> I think, too, that the representation of language family is a great id= ea,
> but I wonder about giving ourself more leeway with the form these woul= d
> take. =A0{-ine}, for example, works pretty well; {-esx} less so. =A0We= might be
> able to get a better match if we used the language family codes as the= first
> part of the fu'ivla and changed them a bit to assure that they had= a good
> cluster in a require position; we thus wouldn't have to tweak the = language
> code as much (if at all, except clusters), making it more recognizable= .
> =A0{-ine}, for example, might become {.inde-}. =A0And, presumably, the= language
> code is more important to be able to look up than the family code.

That starts to look a bit like what I proposed, with the prefix
"bangu-" replaced by something coming from the language family.

Indeed, although hopefully with something a = bit more pronounceable. =A0Plus, even if people don't make use of the f= amily names, having a limited set of prefixes/suffixes that can code langua= ges still makes the words identifiable as languages, but more learnable, si= nce the starts wouldn't be identical for every language.
=A0
> We could also do some other things to make pretty clusters that are mo= re
> autonymic. =A0For example, the Niger-Congo language family is spread a= cross
> nearly all of Africa, and is such a large grouping as to not be that u= seful.
> =A0But, as mentioned before, nearly all Bantu languages (a large subse= t of
> Niger-Congo) have a prefix for languages of the form ki-, with variant= s in
> different languages like iki- and ichi-. =A0Thus, we could use a separ= ate
> prefix for Bantu languages, say {itci-} or {tci-} making them look mor= e
> autonymic.

".itci" won't work, as the ".i" will fall off= , "tci-" might, but
depending on what follows, you could end up with lujvo forms.
<= div>
Ah, right. =A0And I just asked you about that. =A0Must h= ave a hole in my brain somewhere...

.kris.

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