From lojban+bncCOzcnrWBFBDCgprfBBoEOowGXw@googlegroups.com Sun May 09 02:33:16 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1OB2sj-0004Qs-LJ; Sun, 09 May 2010 02:33:15 -0700 Received: by gyd5 with SMTP id 5sf2234858gyd.16 for ; Sun, 09 May 2010 02:32:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:sender :received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=qynb08mkPqzrgkzcpbv0qGtqvIsuWwET6Y462Y5lvow=; b=MgPv61FPtT5qp3BRNpfhq2q5+KFV+YHOXjhImdm+Nf0ZM8Exr8H+KkE0KXTwQrIjXy wUVn+MuvD0rYoDVHS30/4rsB86ZPcBK4W9ZSXasYKEKsvUqgQmY2nByKEZS2Bv45pVCq DoRa3USzF34valjg5xcbEyQDIFuA5OQloVGpw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; b=m1I6aZ467f9nAHCoKZ8rcYn+S2oC+h2/XHhSlad2xnjRohxzYCA/5xBHq/3HgacNsK D0EYP3gtOEAMfm28xbxsKQtN/3MUrKe006hKaOGT8xtEgNksHz4rjM3pve8ZCkDSX1ud IryGKAyoE8eMVTDlI8NAxOieSqjshZJ37YLu8= Received: by 10.151.115.6 with SMTP id s6mr411642ybm.71.1273397570736; Sun, 09 May 2010 02:32:50 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.151.33.42 with SMTP id l42ls2705584ybj.1.p; Sun, 09 May 2010 02:32:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.255.41 with SMTP id c41mr4496314ybi.18.1273397569915; Sun, 09 May 2010 02:32:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.255.41 with SMTP id c41mr4496313ybi.18.1273397569876; Sun, 09 May 2010 02:32:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f180.google.com (mail-qy0-f180.google.com [209.85.221.180]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 18si397610yxe.8.2010.05.09.02.32.48; Sun, 09 May 2010 02:32:48 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of pascal.akihiko@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.180 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.221.180; Received: by qyk10 with SMTP id 10so4061474qyk.11 for ; Sun, 09 May 2010 02:32:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.26.144 with SMTP id e16mr1499022qac.190.1273397568130; Sun, 09 May 2010 02:32:48 -0700 (PDT) Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.1.222 with HTTP; Sun, 9 May 2010 02:32:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201005062238.58059.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 10:32:48 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] The North Wind and the Sun From: tijlan To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of pascal.akihiko@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.180 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=pascal.akihiko@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: pascal.akihiko@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00c09f88cd34b4d35c048625f933 --00c09f88cd34b4d35c048625f933 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2010/5/8 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas > On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 6:48 AM, tijlan wrote: > > > > Then why not create a new place structure out of these two? > > > > zu'epla > > p1=3Dz1 intends p2=3Dz3 > > If p2 can be a computer program, I'm not sure how it can be an > intention too. If p3 is the intention, where do p2 and z2 go? But I > won't claim to understand "platu". > That place structure was meant to be based on this definition: intend To fix the mind upon (something to be accomplished); be intent upon; mean; design; plan; purpose. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/intend x1 (p1=3Dz1) is a volitional entity whose mind is fixed upon plan x2 (p2= =3Dz3) as voha's own purpose But I misread it and mistook "purpose" for a noun object instead of a verb. And also an intended course of action that x1 follows is not necessarily planned by x1 (i.e. no "p1=3Dz1"). So I guess I could have better said x1 (z1) is a volitional entity who intends to follow course of action x2 (p2=3Dz2) for purpose x3 (p3=3Dz3) which is also based on this definition: intention A course of action that a person intends to follow. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/intention But then the presence of {platu} here appears less necessary. If x1 takes action x2 for which z3 is set, x2 is naturally a planned course of action, where {platu} is redundant. > > dasuan 0.36 (zho: =E6=89=93=E7=AE=97 | d=C7=8Esuan ) > > irada 0.21 (hin: =E0=A4=87=E0=A4=B0=E0=A4=BE=E0=A4=A6=E0=A4=BE | ir=C4= =81d=C4=81 ) > > intend 0.16 (eng: intend) > > intension 0.11 (spa: intenci=C3=B3n ) > > namerevatsa 0.09 (rus: =D0=BD=D0=B0=D0=BC=D0=B5=D1=80=D0=B5=D0=B2=D0= =B0=D1=82=D1=8C=D1=81=D1=8F | namerev=C3=A1t=E2=80=99sja ) > > kasada 0.07 (ara: =D9=82=D8=B5=D8=AF | qaSada ) > > > > (The Hindi and the Spanish are nouns because I didn't know and couldn'= t > > find its verb form. > > There's no simple verb for that in Spanish, we would say "tener la > intenci=C3=B3n de". > > There is however the cognate "intentar", which means try/attempt. > Which makes me wonder, whether there is any difference between "troci" > and "zukte" other than switching their x2/x3: > > troci =3D setese zukte? > zukte =3D setese troci? > Another difference I can think of is the degree of "effort". According to OED, "effort" can mean an activity that either (a) takes a lot of energy or (b) is [just] organised in order to achieve something. I think I have seen many instances of "troci" used for (a), a sense which "zukte" lacks. > > drasa 0.434 > > Sounds good. I'll try to remember it next time I need "intends". > > One word I had trouble translating recently was "x1 accedes to do x2" > (and it's opposite "x1 refuses to do x2"). > > These could be: > > "ko'a spuda lo nu ko'a te cpedu lo nu ko'a gasnu ko'e kei ko'i kei lo > nu ko'a drasa lo nu ko'a gasnu ko'e" > "x1 responds to being requested to do x2 by x3 with the intention to do x= 2" > "x1 accedes to do x2 (for x3)" > > "ko'a spuda lo nu ko'a te cpedu lo nu ko'a gasnu ko'e kei ko'i kei lo > nu ko'a drasa lo nu ko'a na gasnu ko'e" > "x1 responds to being requested to do x2 by x3 with the intention to not = do > x2" > "x1 refuses to do x2 (for x3)" > > I don't know whether "drasyspu", "nardrasyspu" would be clear enough > though. > > Any better ideas? > (I briefly thought of "tinbe", which is of a mode of responding by being (ja'a) or not being (na) the agent of an event wanted by someone else. But the event is commanded, not requested, thus different from the x2 of "accedes".) "spuda"s x2 is not the response, not what x1 accedes to do; x3 is. I might prefer "spudrasa" or better yet "cpadrasa": d1=3Ds1 intends to do d2=3Ds3 as a response to s2 d1=3Dc1 accepts and intends to do d2=3Dc2 suggested by c3 "cpadrasa" seems more natural to me. s2 is less likely a requester than c3 is. And s3 can be an action contrary to what s2 wants. "suggested" in this case means that c2 is a purpose given by c3. mu'o mi'e tijlan --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --00c09f88cd34b4d35c048625f933 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
2010/5/8 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas &= lt;jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 6:48 AM, tijlan <jbotijlan@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Then why not create a new place structure out of these two?
>
> =C2=A0zu'epla
> =C2=A0p1=3Dz1 intends p2=3Dz3

If p2 can be a computer program, I'm not sure how it can be an intention too. If p3 is the intention, where do p2 and z2 go? But I
won't claim to understand "platu".

T= hat place structure was meant to be based on this definition:

=C2=A0= intend
=C2=A0To fix the mind upon (something to be accomplished); be int= ent upon; mean; design; plan; purpose.
=C2=A0http://en.wiktionary= .org/wiki/intend

=C2=A0x1 (p1=3Dz1) is a volitional entity whose= mind is fixed upon plan x2=20 (p2=3Dz3) as voha's own purpose

But I misread it and mistook &qu= ot;purpose" for a noun object instead of a verb. And also an intended = course of action that x1 follows is not necessarily=20 planned by x1 (i.e. no "p1=3Dz1"). So I guess I could have better= said

=C2=A0x1 (z1) is a volitional entity who intends to follow cou= rse of action x2 (p2=3Dz2) for purpose x3 (p3=3Dz3)

which is also ba= sed on this definition:

=C2=A0intention
=C2=A0A course of action that a person intends to fo= llow.
=C2=A0http://e= n.wiktionary.org/wiki/intention

But then the presence of {platu}= here appears less necessary. If x1 takes action x2 for which z3 is set, x2= is naturally a planned course of action, where {platu} is redundant.

=C2=A0
> =C2=A0dasuan 0.36 (zho: =E6=89=93=E7=AE=97 | d=C7=8Esuan )
> =C2=A0irada 0.21 (hin: =E0=A4=87=E0=A4=B0=E0=A4=BE=E0=A4=A6=E0=A4=BE |= ir=C4=81d=C4=81 )
> =C2=A0intend 0.16 (eng: intend)
> =C2=A0intension 0.11 (spa: intenci=C3=B3n )
> =C2=A0namerevatsa 0.09 (rus: =D0=BD=D0=B0=D0=BC=D0=B5=D1=80=D0=B5=D0= =B2=D0=B0=D1=82=D1=8C=D1=81=D1=8F | namerev=C3=A1t=E2=80=99sja )
> =C2=A0kasada 0.07 (ara: =D9=82=D8=B5=D8=AF | qaSada )
>
> =C2=A0(The Hindi and the Spanish are nouns because I didn't know a= nd couldn't
> find its verb form.

There's no simple verb for that in Spanish, we would say "te= ner la
intenci=C3=B3n de".

There is however the cognate "intentar", which means try/attempt.=
Which makes me wonder, whether there is any difference between "troci&= quot;
and "zukte" other than switching their x2/x3:

troci =3D setese zukte?
zukte =3D setese troci?

Another difference I can t= hink of is the degree of "effort". According to OED, "effort= " can mean an activity that either (a) takes a lot of energy or (b) is= [just] organised in order to achieve something. I think I have seen many i= nstances of "troci" used for (a), a sense which "zukte"= lacks.

=C2=A0
> =C2=A0drasa 0.434

Sounds good. I'll try to remember it next time I need "intends&quo= t;.

One word I had trouble translating recently was "x1 accedes to do x2&q= uot;
(and it's opposite "x1 refuses to do x2").

These could be:

"ko'a spuda lo nu ko'a te cpedu lo nu ko'a gasnu ko'e = kei ko'i kei lo
nu ko'a drasa lo nu ko'a gasnu ko'e"
"x1 responds to being requested to do x2 by x3 with the intention to d= o x2"
"x1 accedes to do x2 (for x3)"

"ko'a spuda lo nu ko'a te cpedu lo nu ko'a gasnu ko'e = kei ko'i kei lo
nu ko'a drasa lo nu ko'a na gasnu ko'e"
"x1 responds to being requested to do x2 by x3 with the intention to n= ot do x2"
"x1 refuses to do x2 (for x3)"

I don't know whether "drasyspu", "nardrasyspu" woul= d be clear enough though.

Any better ideas?

(I briefly thought of "tinb= e", which is of a mode of responding by being (ja'a) or not being = (na) the agent of an event wanted by someone else. But the event is command= ed, not requested, thus different from the x2 of "accedes".)
=C2=A0
"spuda"s x2 is not the response, not what x1 ac= cedes to do; x3 is. I might prefer "spudrasa" or better yet "= ;cpadrasa":

=C2=A0d1=3Ds1 intends to do d2=3Ds3 as a response t= o s2

=C2=A0d1=3Dc1 accepts and intends to do d2=3Dc2 suggested by c3

&quo= t;cpadrasa" seems more natural to me. s2 is less likely a requester th= an c3 is. And s3 can be an action contrary to what s2 wants. "suggeste= d" in this case means that c2 is a purpose given by c3.


mu'o mi'e tijlan


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