From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRCjpZvfBBoEWrRfNQ@googlegroups.com Sun May 09 08:20:28 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1OB8Ik-00009l-MK; Sun, 09 May 2010 08:20:27 -0700 Received: by gwj18 with SMTP id 18sf2014231gwj.16 for ; Sun, 09 May 2010 08:20:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=8OBvXSeqUNsezpHrdbYLFb77SwalGJYesipXWsM2eSM=; b=uHr0LfTJvX/uUYGJl95b51YP4Vmvv4vupy8pDc+z/sOIiJWQahgNzq4UDR8WtKNZPo +D6G1qkPPJyoVLSmWgbRMOJOiow+KWtB4Cmk9es1XxN18gDUu9nUPaLj2vbXeASNQLGk fa7CgeLxid3512A2+uBYVGc4KmsbPjMKp6T0E= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Zz4cRAzR9yf0+5duh7BkwLG2ZlHflo51af+TCwQFtTw6IlGpG49f/XV62i8VZlijb1 inqc/rvpmBOPRNHUPkTH1IeoHZrFnTcnjeQcRvFNKQIRu5SZcgvPJwXgXQ/9qbFU3nNZ mu26u7dckEgpsJJjDA1ctQjKArpGAJu/n4yz8= Received: by 10.91.59.20 with SMTP id m20mr206056agk.43.1273418403959; Sun, 09 May 2010 08:20:03 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.91.91.6 with SMTP id t6ls7390897agl.0.p; Sun, 09 May 2010 08:20:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.131.19 with SMTP id e19mr4798308agd.6.1273418402685; Sun, 09 May 2010 08:20:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.131.19 with SMTP id e19mr4798306agd.6.1273418402628; Sun, 09 May 2010 08:20:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f194.google.com (mail-qy0-f194.google.com [209.85.221.194]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 19si423269yxe.3.2010.05.09.08.20.01; Sun, 09 May 2010 08:20:01 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.194 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.221.194; Received: by mail-qy0-f194.google.com with SMTP id 32so4638424qyk.0 for ; Sun, 09 May 2010 08:20:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.104.93 with SMTP id n29mr1728236qao.193.1273418401425; Sun, 09 May 2010 08:20:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.82.11 with HTTP; Sun, 9 May 2010 08:20:01 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201005062238.58059.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 12:20:01 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] The North Wind and the Sun From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.194 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 6:32 AM, tijlan wrote: > 2010/5/8 Jorge Llamb=EDas > >> Which makes me wonder, whether there is any difference between "troci" >> and "zukte" other than switching their x2/x3: >> >> troci =3D setese zukte? >> zukte =3D setese troci? > > Another difference I can think of is the degree of "effort". According to > OED, "effort" can mean an activity that either (a) takes a lot of energy = or > (b) is [just] organised in order to achieve something. I think I have see= n > many instances of "troci" used for (a), a sense which "zukte" lacks. Good point. So in the case of zukte there is almost no question that the intention will be accomplished by the action, while in the case of troci it is very much in doubt whether the intention will be accomplished: (1) ko'a zukte lo nu cargau lo veljai kei lo nu kargau lo vorme "He turns the handle to open the door." (2) ko'a troci lo nu kargau lo vorme kei lo nu cargau lo veljai "He tries to open the door by turning the handle." In (1) the question of whether the door will open or not is hardly raised (it may end up not opening, but that would be unexpected). In (2), we are not at all certain whether the door will open. >> > =A0drasa 0.434 >> >> One word I had trouble translating recently was "x1 accedes to do x2" >> (and it's opposite "x1 refuses to do x2"). >> >> I don't know whether "drasyspu", "nardrasyspu" would be clear enough >> though. > > (I briefly thought of "tinbe", which is of a mode of responding by being > (ja'a) or not being (na) the agent of an event wanted by someone else. Bu= t > the event is commanded, not requested, thus different from the x2 of > "accedes".) There's that, yes, but another problem with "tinbe" is that it is about the actual doing, not the predisposition to do. That may perhaps be fixed with "bredi". tibybre: x1 is prepared to follow command/rule/(request?) x2 made by x3 Maybe we don't need "drasa" if "bredi" can mean "predisposed to do". Indeed "tolbre lo nu jungau" is what I ended up using for "refuse to tell". I didn't think it was a very good match in general, but it seemed ok in the context. I think the problem is that "bredi" doesn't have to be intentional. > "spuda"s x2 is not the response, not what x1 accedes to do; x3 is. I migh= t > prefer "spudrasa" or better yet "cpadrasa": > > =A0d1=3Ds1 intends to do d2=3Ds3 as a response to s2 > > =A0d1=3Dc1 accepts and intends to do d2=3Dc2 suggested by c3 > > "cpadrasa" seems more natural to me. s2 is less likely a requester than c= 3 > is. And s3 can be an action contrary to what s2 wants. "suggested" in thi= s > case means that c2 is a purpose given by c3. Maybe. The problem is that my first reading of "cpadrasa" is "drasa be lo nu cpacu", "x1 intends to get x2", not "cpacu je drasa". I think I prefer "tibdrasa", "drasa be lo nu tinbe", perhaps modified to "cpetibdrasa" when it's not clear that it is a response to a request rather than to a command. Perhaps "tinbe" should be extended to: x1 obeys/follows/complies with command/rule/request x2 made by x3 and then specialized to "midytinbe" or "cpetinbe" when needed. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.