From lojban+bncCOzcnrWBFBD_zZzfBBoEXdUpXQ@googlegroups.com Sun May 09 14:20:17 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1OBDv2-0000ZC-2W; Sun, 09 May 2010 14:20:17 -0700 Received: by gyd5 with SMTP id 5sf2639654gyd.16 for ; Sun, 09 May 2010 14:20:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:sender :received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=8ENMu90BUhGsPV7Oy2BHOVSJzdGcZa2B9BsjBWbfnzo=; b=IV5L8QouLGA5RQENcV0s7788xy+oUemlly+pCR3cjGVhD1gq8uCuod7kCrq+eJLxn+ THKr4OYH3O5X8qWNhL0L9qeA0ko2tjIOjY5hx7TP2M9tvMmOMYfA3BVCPh/omVgD5KPq eOm2rktCfAh4guSGwX/9SqBtqc8IVc2rZRaxE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; b=2UHOAwJ18K6lvSloG7HJYIzYb4WSwdNbu34DBc2wFpFqh2pXx6Q43vaXTrVaw28eOh h3gPa6CvmgcBGpakokN+eLYLbvhu1u8t69dhTj4c7iEr63OFYdI6soYnAZDMO/VLm7u9 OeLoS6T9dWsdDzgQ35FZJnUCgoR4Lzalz4G18= Received: by 10.91.182.17 with SMTP id j17mr236114agp.55.1273439999202; Sun, 09 May 2010 14:19:59 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.91.66.23 with SMTP id t23ls7728227agk.6.p; Sun, 09 May 2010 14:19:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.10.20 with SMTP id 20mr5041654agj.0.1273439998349; Sun, 09 May 2010 14:19:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.10.20 with SMTP id 20mr5041653agj.0.1273439998294; Sun, 09 May 2010 14:19:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f194.google.com (mail-qy0-f194.google.com [209.85.221.194]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 17si469714gxk.8.2010.05.09.14.19.57; Sun, 09 May 2010 14:19:57 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of pascal.akihiko@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.194 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.221.194; Received: by mail-qy0-f194.google.com with SMTP id 32so4962974qyk.0 for ; Sun, 09 May 2010 14:19:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.88.25 with SMTP id y25mr1954652qal.226.1273439997026; Sun, 09 May 2010 14:19:57 -0700 (PDT) Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.1.222 with HTTP; Sun, 9 May 2010 14:19:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201005062238.58059.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 22:19:56 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] The North Wind and the Sun From: tijlan To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of pascal.akihiko@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.194 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=pascal.akihiko@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: pascal.akihiko@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00c09f905eedaa649704862fdad8 --00c09f905eedaa649704862fdad8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2010/5/9 Jorge Llamb=EDas > >> > drasa 0.434 > >> > >> One word I had trouble translating recently was "x1 accedes to do x2" > >> (and it's opposite "x1 refuses to do x2"). > >> > >> I don't know whether "drasyspu", "nardrasyspu" would be clear enough > >> though. > > > > (I briefly thought of "tinbe", which is of a mode of responding by bein= g > > (ja'a) or not being (na) the agent of an event wanted by someone else. > But > > the event is commanded, not requested, thus different from the x2 of > > "accedes".) > > There's that, yes, but another problem with "tinbe" is that it is > about the actual doing, not the predisposition to do. That may perhaps > be fixed with "bredi". > > tibybre: x1 is prepared to follow command/rule/(request?) x2 made by x3 > > Maybe we don't need "drasa" if "bredi" can mean "predisposed to do". > Indeed "tolbre lo nu jungau" is what I ended up using for "refuse to > tell". I didn't think it was a very good match in general, but it > seemed ok in the context. I think the problem is that "bredi" doesn't > have to be intentional. > "future-oriented + intentional" leads me to "bavgau" or "bavzu'e". > > "spuda"s x2 is not the response, not what x1 accedes to do; x3 is. I > might > > prefer "spudrasa" or better yet "cpadrasa": > > > > d1=3Ds1 intends to do d2=3Ds3 as a response to s2 > > > > d1=3Dc1 accepts and intends to do d2=3Dc2 suggested by c3 > > > > "cpadrasa" seems more natural to me. s2 is less likely a requester than > c3 > > is. And s3 can be an action contrary to what s2 wants. "suggested" in > this > > case means that c2 is a purpose given by c3. > > Maybe. The problem is that my first reading of "cpadrasa" is "drasa be > lo nu cpacu", "x1 intends to get x2", not "cpacu je drasa". > This makes me wonder how "intends to do" differ from "wants to do". Perhaps simply: mi djica lo nu [ce'u?] jungau I intend to tell mi toldji lo nu [ce'u?] jungau I refuse to tell Although UI does differentiate "ai/ainai" from "au/aunai". mu'o mi'e tijlan --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --00c09f905eedaa649704862fdad8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
2010/5/9 Jorge Llamb=EDas <= jjllambias@gmail.com>=
>> > =A0drasa 0.434
>>
>> One word I had trouble translating recently was "x1 accedes t= o do x2"
>> (and it's opposite "x1 refuses to do x2").
>>
>> I don't know whether "drasyspu&qu= ot;, "nardrasyspu" would be clear enough
>> though.
>
> (I briefly thought of "tinbe", which= is of a mode of responding by being
> (ja'a) or not being (na) the agent of an event wanted by someone e= lse. But
> the event is commanded, not requested, thus different from the x2 of > "accedes".)

There's that, yes, but another problem with "tinbe" is = that it is
about the actual doing, not the predisposition to do. That may perhaps
be fixed with "bredi".

tibybre: x1 is prepared to follow command/rule/(request?) x2 made by x3
=

Maybe we don't need "drasa" if "bredi" can mean &qu= ot;predisposed to do".
Indeed "tolbre lo nu jungau" is what I ended up using for "r= efuse to
tell". I didn't think it was a very good match in general, but it<= br> seemed ok in the context. I think the problem is that "bredi" doe= sn't
have to be intentional.

"future-oriented + in= tentional" leads me to "bavgau" or "bavzu'e".<= br>
=A0
> "spuda"s x2 is not the response, not what x1 accedes to do; = x3 is. I might
> prefer "spudrasa" or better yet "cpadrasa":
>
> =A0d1=3Ds1 intends to do d2=3Ds3 as a response to s2
>
> =A0d1=3Dc1 accepts and intends to do d2=3Dc2 suggested by c3
>
> "cpadrasa" seems more natural to me. s2 is less likely a req= uester than c3
> is. And s3 can be an action contrary to what s2 wants. "suggested= " in this
> case means that c2 is a purpose given by c3.

Maybe. The problem is that my first reading of "cpadrasa" i= s "drasa be
lo nu cpacu", "x1 intends to get x2", not "cpacu je dra= sa".

This makes me wonder how "intends t= o do" differ from "wants to do". Perhaps simply:

=A0mi djica lo nu [ce'u?] jungau
=A0I intend to tell

=A0mi to= ldji lo nu [ce'u?] jungau
=A0I refuse to tell

Although UI doe= s differentiate "ai/ainai" from "au/aunai".


= mu'o mi'e tijlan

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