From lojban+bncCMvjp-TQBRCis6DfBBoE69ZfXQ@googlegroups.com Mon May 10 07:35:45 2010 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1OBU4x-00079t-Ni; Mon, 10 May 2010 07:35:44 -0700 Received: by wwf26 with SMTP id 26sf682288wwf.16 for ; Mon, 10 May 2010 07:35:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:mime-version:sender :received:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ByeJoeIKxtB59b3Bs8I/dXKvi4Ebo/qtvmGjMPnjLh0=; b=fRWglrlbsuUgB5NaHhr1vxgqluXCjwHGmlrI7YejACmewQq8MumYB81/1Qzm5IxZ+q uw1uZwDPwTl1JIaXW44/DpsgJDvT/2uG+bF/ohr+SN7ZkvKinSi9vKWGb9x9OnlIidrb 6co/9iAtrPcKRv8hxZiVdN2RYzzyndFfz8I44= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=g0gUkGubLqB7+a+4yWNzOo09PtrFAiI3wc+xY7KSb6uTgR72tEaMIfjnZ6lrf1YyH+ lzZNTtdh+YB026DFHHG2bQUC2rK1at0+zcbjzvWTc8iaCw9lzpOQfe0mMatkGw2LCW92 qJDHy3TrGWhhMCDKR77X44S4VlbtjYjTc0CtI= Received: by 10.223.16.87 with SMTP id n23mr417562faa.44.1273502114691; Mon, 10 May 2010 07:35:14 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.223.147.144 with SMTP id l16ls18426829fav.3.p; Mon, 10 May 2010 07:35:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.144.193 with SMTP id a1mr178629fav.25.1273502113429; Mon, 10 May 2010 07:35:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.144.193 with SMTP id a1mr178628fav.25.1273502113390; Mon, 10 May 2010 07:35:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f221.google.com (mail-bw0-f221.google.com [209.85.218.221]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id x13si3196148fah.3.2010.05.10.07.35.12; Mon, 10 May 2010 07:35:12 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of dbrockman@gmail.com designates 209.85.218.221 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.218.221; Received: by mail-bw0-f221.google.com with SMTP id 21so1830340bwz.35 for ; Mon, 10 May 2010 07:35:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.134.151 with SMTP id j23mr2517856bkt.17.1273502112103; Mon, 10 May 2010 07:35:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.26.216 with HTTP; Mon, 10 May 2010 07:34:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Daniel Brockman Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 16:34:52 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Attitudinal scales and the meaning of {cu'i} To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of dbrockman@gmail.com designates 209.85.218.221 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=dbrockman@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: dbrockman@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2010/5/10 Jorge Llamb=EDas : > On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 10:04 AM, Daniel Brockman wr= ote: >> >> No, I don't think {.o'a cu'i} is a midpoint at all. =A0I think it's a >> zero point. =A0To me, {cu'i} means zero. >> >> So {.o'a cu'i} simply means zero pride. > > "Zero pride" has negative connotations that ".o'a cu'i" doesn't have, > and it's not quite the same as "modesty", but that may or may not be > relevant to what you are saying. Yeah, "zero" was a sloppy way of expressing what I mean. > Are you saying that: > > (1) There shouldn't be an entry for ".o'a cu'i" in jbovlaste. I don't care much about that, but I think there should be one if and only if there is one for {re roi}. > (2) There shouldn't be a definition for ".o'a cu'i" in > http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section:+Realis+Attitudinals Yes, exactly. I have no problem with mentioning it, but I think it should be more of an explanation than a definition. > (3) In the event that the LLG ever publishes a dictionary, that > dictionary should not have an entry for ".o'a cu'i". Don't care. > As for (2), =A0I'm not convinced that the cu'i words are really > transparently compositional. The wording "zero X" does not seem to > capture their meaning in most cases, but that may be just a failure of > the English idiom "zero X". "Zero patience" suggests impatience, not > "o'o cu'i", "zero relaxation" suggests stress, not "o'u cu'i", and so > on. Okay, here's what I mean. {o'a cu'i} =3D "not proud (but not necessarily ashamed)" {o'a ru'i} =3D "a little proud" {o'a} =3D "proud" {o'a sai} =3D "very proud" So {cu'i} kind of means "I don't particularly feel this." {o'o cu'i} =3D "not patient (but not necessarily impatient)" {o'u cu'i} =3D "not relaxed (but not necessarily stressed)" It works in the opposite direction too: {o'a nai cu'i} =3D "not ashamed (but not necessarily proud)" {o'o nai cu'i} =3D "not impatient (but not necessarily patient)" {o'u nai cu'i} =3D "not stressed (but not necessarily relaxed)" Essentially, I want to split each scale into two separate scales (usually opposite, but sometimes not quite), ranging from {cu'i}, which I consider to be zero, through {ru'e}, {ja'ai}, {sai} and maybe beyond. Every scale becomes a question of "how much of this do you feel," rather than a gradient between two emotions. Am I making sense? --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.