From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBCtqqDfBBoEZE3okA@googlegroups.com Mon May 10 07:59:51 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f149.google.com ([209.85.221.149]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1OBUSN-0000gv-3E; Mon, 10 May 2010 07:59:51 -0700 Received: by qyk13 with SMTP id 13sf3012174qyk.1 for ; Mon, 10 May 2010 07:59:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=gDF9h5fLlbWUhbdacUv2MUK/YBW2aaThkeqc5ugo/Sg=; b=kNLMsaRc5dsTeJLp1zjxngXnZtBmdSPJSher8m6XMkQYlDAo2D3LKHMbX7khsoWqZg UysUoMjFuDBZFA3XPBTZnin6tW0scS1gHx+6PCKIaXfBdn+yj3ibN7qIFIezYzePlno/ H7QcGbno92V+4ljfDA7lStVeAlTC668sLGW8E= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=c9LeKUyKAMl9B22d/aKtZhGNvu9ovHSv/8tmoO2qe9YV+Sh7k1UWyxGotN66TrZC8v gXgcaj8xE+CJxgLa/OilOKfQjrkTPTRlgWH3SLlHqf86SZY1SSB4qMoUjJDIlKWv0zE+ YYGNfeodrVMtTqkoy4Y5FOYDP6qAntcf73f/g= Received: by 10.224.10.27 with SMTP id n27mr242694qan.43.1273500973536; Mon, 10 May 2010 07:16:13 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.53.149 with SMTP id m21ls8149123qag.6.p; Mon, 10 May 2010 07:16:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.59.166 with SMTP id l38mr509726qah.19.1273500970054; Mon, 10 May 2010 07:16:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.59.166 with SMTP id l38mr509721qah.19.1273500968749; Mon, 10 May 2010 07:16:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f54.google.com (mail-vw0-f54.google.com [209.85.212.54]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 19si1060530qyk.5.2010.05.10.07.16.07; Mon, 10 May 2010 07:16:07 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.54 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.54; Received: by mail-vw0-f54.google.com with SMTP id 8so363487vws.27 for ; Mon, 10 May 2010 07:16:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.127.81 with SMTP id f17mr3390288vcs.13.1273500967452; Mon, 10 May 2010 07:16:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.94.77 with HTTP; Mon, 10 May 2010 07:16:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 10:16:07 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Attitudinal scales and the meaning of {cu'i} From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.54 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e68e8ba5c941e604863e0cd0 --0016e68e8ba5c941e604863e0cd0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a suspicion that if a person were brought speaking lojban only, they would probably understand ".o'ocu'i" to mean the same thing that we would put in a dictionary for it. I think probably everyone in this discussion (myself certainly included) is being influenced by the fact that our native languages do not have attitudinals. I think that a Xcu'i emotion would be easily intuited by a person who is fluent or a person whose first language was lojban. As you say xorxes, I think the fact that "zero relaxation" sounds kind of like "impatience" is an affect of malglico mindset. 2010/5/10 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 10:04 AM, Daniel Brockman > wrote: > > > > No, I don't think {.o'a cu'i} is a midpoint at all. I think it's a > > zero point. To me, {cu'i} means zero. > > > > So {.o'a cu'i} simply means zero pride. > > "Zero pride" has negative connotations that ".o'a cu'i" doesn't have, > and it's not quite the same as "modesty", but that may or may not be > relevant to what you are saying. > > Are you saying that: > > (1) There shouldn't be an entry for ".o'a cu'i" in jbovlaste. > > (2) There shouldn't be a definition for ".o'a cu'i" in > http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section:+Realis+Attitudinals > > (3) In the event that the LLG ever publishes a dictionary, that > dictionary should not have an entry for ".o'a cu'i". > > As for (1), the way jbovlaste was designed it is not possible to have > a natlang -> lojban result unless there is a lojban entry, so the only > way that jbovlaste can return something for a search on "twice" is if > it has an entry for "re roi". That may be a less than optimal design, > but that's how it is. > > As for (2), I'm not convinced that the cu'i words are really > transparently compositional. The wording "zero X" does not seem to > capture their meaning in most cases, but that may be just a failure of > the English idiom "zero X". "Zero patience" suggests impatience, not > "o'o cu'i", "zero relaxation" suggests stress, not "o'u cu'i", and so > on. > > As for (3), it's probably too early to decide anything one way or the > other, but I suppose the obvious choice would be to follow whatever we > do for (2). > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0016e68e8ba5c941e604863e0cd0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a suspicion that if a person were brought speaking lojban only, they= would probably understand ".o'ocu'i" to mean the same th= ing that we would put in a dictionary for it. =A0I think probably everyone = in this discussion (myself certainly included) is being influenced by the f= act that our native languages do not have attitudinals. =A0I think that a X= cu'i emotion would be easily intuited by a person who is fluent or a pe= rson whose first language was lojban.

As you say xorxes, I think the fact that "zero relaxati= on" sounds kind of like "impatience" is an affect of malglic= o mindset.=A0

2010/5/10 Jorge Llamb=EDas = <jjllambias@gm= ail.com>
On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 1= 0:04 AM, Daniel Brockman <daniel@b= rockman.se> wrote:
>
> No, I don't think {.o'a cu'i} is a midpoint at all. =A0I t= hink it's a
> zero point. =A0To me, {cu'i} means zero.
>
> So {.o'a cu'i} simply means zero pride.

"Zero pride" has negative connotations that ".o'a = cu'i" doesn't have,
and it's not quite the same as "modesty", but that may or may= not be
relevant to what you are saying.

Are you saying that:

(1) There shouldn't be an entry for ".o'a cu'i" in jb= ovlaste.

(2) There shouldn't be a definition for ".o'a cu'i" i= n
http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section:+Realis+Attitudinal= s

(3) In the event that the LLG ever publishes a dictionary, that
dictionary should not have an entry for ".o'a cu'i".

As for (1), the way jbovlaste was designed it is not possible to have
a natlang -> lojban result unless there is a lojban entry, so the only way that jbovlaste can return something for a search on "twice" i= s if
it has an entry for "re roi". That may be a less than optimal des= ign,
but that's how it is.

As for (2), =A0I'm not convinced that the cu'i words are really
transparently compositional. The wording "zero X" does not seem t= o
capture their meaning in most cases, but that may be just a failure of
the English idiom "zero X". "Zero patience" suggests im= patience, not
"o'o cu'i", "zero relaxation" suggests stress, = not "o'u cu'i", and so
on.

As for (3), it's probably too early to decide anything one way or the other, but I suppose the obvious choice would be to follow whatever we
do for (2).

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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