From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBDf0KDfBBoEj98hJg@googlegroups.com Mon May 10 08:38:30 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f149.google.com ([209.85.221.149]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1OBV3m-0004C3-6C; Mon, 10 May 2010 08:38:29 -0700 Received: by qyk13 with SMTP id 13sf3045206qyk.1 for ; Mon, 10 May 2010 08:38:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=oGZED3ww4vVEl3cVhBIXBHNWW70eQbq2P9709xfqtUc=; b=wEbVihjTWqqapxPuBwYlEEcRFCz2QnK0WVUcMNvq6/3OlYZVV2jJX5zsciAQjaA4YS eowo2PQQLhTRJRm0nAlAS4x/6Kj3GwuxzX0o0qLuEu3P3P2lpDTGN+kpj8Qp04vP9PwN odgu4VYrXEUli7uMeYMHNLgL0K6nat3Qzl92g= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=khMCJMPV5NkTskqfMqbLBd67tIQ0DVH5JE+W1Me632VLbKwQDP+v/OJMoCVbTuR66I hsEaNmqO29wKLdveavKw3cRbB8wrqNZ7oX9GANV7wOH1tyWFCboUEJBg4Nb+gz/+2u7x c2VmWW9AA2jAOWviNyyXn0W+VdwJeaUtogfAs= Received: by 10.229.1.153 with SMTP id 25mr296760qcf.16.1273505887518; Mon, 10 May 2010 08:38:07 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.10.160 with SMTP id p32ls14240004qcp.2.p; Mon, 10 May 2010 08:38:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.192.132 with SMTP id dq4mr514140qcb.2.1273505886521; Mon, 10 May 2010 08:38:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.192.132 with SMTP id dq4mr514139qcb.2.1273505886479; Mon, 10 May 2010 08:38:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f53.google.com (mail-vw0-f53.google.com [209.85.212.53]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 18si1038254qyk.12.2010.05.10.08.38.05; Mon, 10 May 2010 08:38:05 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.53 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.53; Received: by vws18 with SMTP id 18so900008vws.26 for ; Mon, 10 May 2010 08:38:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.127.81 with SMTP id f17mr3472025vcs.13.1273505885025; Mon, 10 May 2010 08:38:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.94.77 with HTTP; Mon, 10 May 2010 08:38:04 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 11:38:04 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Attitudinal scales and the meaning of {cu'i} From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.53 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e68e8ba5e576a404863f31e9 --0016e68e8ba5e576a404863f31e9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> As you say xorxes, I think the fact that "zero relaxation" sounds kind o= f >> like "impatience" is an affect of malglico mindset. > Did I really say that? I assumed that that was what you were getting at when you said: "The wording "zero X" does not seem to capture their meaning in most cases, but that may be just a failure of the English idiom "zero X". "Zero patience" suggests impatience, not "o'o cu'i", "zero relaxation" suggests stress, not "o'u cu'i", and so on." If the concept of "zero patience" implies "impatience" (to'e patience) in english, and if that is influencing our understanding of what {.o'ocu'i} means then that is malglico is it not? 2010/5/10 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 11:16 AM, Luke Bergen > wrote: > > I have a suspicion that if a person were brought speaking lojban only, > they > > would probably understand ".o'ocu'i" to mean the same thing that we wou= ld > > put in a dictionary for it. > > That suggests that a Lojban-Lojban dictionary may not need to define > them. But we have been considering Lojban-English dictionaries. > > > I think probably everyone in this discussion > > (myself certainly included) is being influenced by the fact that our > native > > languages do not have attitudinals. > > All languages have attitudinals, even if not as tidy or systematic as > Lojban tries to. English "Wow!" is an attitudinal, for example. > > > I think that a Xcu'i emotion would be > > easily intuited by a person who is fluent or a person whose first > language > > was lojban. > > By definition of fluency, that must be so. > > > As you say xorxes, I think the fact that "zero relaxation" sounds kind = of > > like "impatience" is an affect of malglico mindset. > > Did I really say that? > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0016e68e8ba5e576a404863f31e9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>&g= t; As you say xorxes, I think the fact that "zero relaxation" sou= nds kind of
>> like "impatience" is an affect of malglic= o mindset.

> Di= d I really say that?

I assumed that that was what= you were getting at when you said:=A0
"The wording "zero X" does not seem to capture their meaning in most cases, but that may be just a failure of
t= he English idiom "zero X". "Zero patience" suggests imp= atience, not
"o'o cu'i", "zero relaxation" s= uggests stress, not "o'u cu'i", and so
on."

If the concept of "zero patience&qu= ot; implies "impatience" (to'e patience) in english, and if t= hat is=A0influencing=A0our understanding of what {.o'ocu'i} means t= hen that is malglico is it not?

2010/5/10 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com&= gt;
On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 11:16 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have a suspicion that if a person were brought speaking lojban only,= they
> would probably understand ".o'ocu'i" to mean the sam= e thing that we would
> put in a dictionary for it.

That suggests that a Lojban-Lojban dictionary may not need to define<= br> them. But we have been considering Lojban-English dictionaries.

>=A0I think probably everyone in this discussion
> (myself certainly included) is being influenced by the fact that our n= ative
> languages do not have attitudinals.

All languages have attitudinals, even if not as tidy or systematic as=
Lojban tries to. English "Wow!" is an attitudinal, for example.

>=A0I think that a Xcu'i emotion would be
> easily intuited by a person who is fluent or a person whose first lang= uage
> was lojban.

By definition of fluency, that must be so.

> As you say xorxes, I think the fact that "zero relaxation" s= ounds kind of
> like "impatience" is an affect of malglico mindset.

Did I really say that?

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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