From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRCD7rHfBBoEMYi_uw@googlegroups.com Thu May 13 15:03:06 2010 Received: from mail-yx0-f144.google.com ([209.85.210.144]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1OCgUc-0000oN-K8; Thu, 13 May 2010 15:03:06 -0700 Received: by yxe8 with SMTP id 8sf1065908yxe.25 for ; Thu, 13 May 2010 15:02:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=HVwx6Ix5McHkh+RB+KlgoIGGpy6w/PBJ6Qlu1V70eCw=; b=Xv+hpRVEQJeJSoabbURmPGNh5YcUhm/HppBojwzxcH3+XULV6M5FNpuwBKwF9EgVsT 8JkjmYBfaP+vEiHFY+MYLtIpaB+vJJayCB9sT77Xw2ag9m9zVAuA06Jeud4NMSuOfoDe 9EVOSWtHr2mgIqoklBga8uPPSbTNvbr+V+AWw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=tESPtDAIi9G/ZcvVuipg2NVKupu7YWjS0O/slrOnx3+HQDwbpiKqSOdzdxblNZwTw5 31y3sgo7JAWcdr0Pd2gKFnG2IwQ8qO24RFd7O8HIBf9MMzNel0Q33IcmJzYUggIo9e/e m1R8gUZ0gb1Nrwg7UssbS4Sua9f02Ld+llcNE= Received: by 10.90.125.12 with SMTP id x12mr87313agc.40.1273788163904; Thu, 13 May 2010 15:02:43 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.91.91.8 with SMTP id t8ls250559agl.2.p; Thu, 13 May 2010 15:02:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.7.36 with SMTP id 36mr630292agg.10.1273788163181; Thu, 13 May 2010 15:02:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.7.36 with SMTP id 36mr630291agg.10.1273788163147; Thu, 13 May 2010 15:02:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f180.google.com (mail-qy0-f180.google.com [209.85.221.180]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 18si144537gxk.3.2010.05.13.15.02.42; Thu, 13 May 2010 15:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.180 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.221.180; Received: by mail-qy0-f180.google.com with SMTP id 10so2153194qyk.11 for ; Thu, 13 May 2010 15:02:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.71.206 with SMTP id i14mr72969qaj.75.1273788161946; Thu, 13 May 2010 15:02:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.82.11 with HTTP; Thu, 13 May 2010 15:02:41 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 19:02:41 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Named multiples From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.180 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 6:28 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > I noticed something on that page that I didn't understand.=A0 Why get rid= of > sa?=A0 What could be more clear than "take next word and erase all previo= us > words back to the last occurrence of the following word"?=A0 What confusi= ons > arise from this definition/usage?=A0 Or maybe I'm confusing sa with su ma'oste: "erase complete or partial utterance; next word shows how much erasing to do." CLL: "The cmavo following ``sa'' should be the starting marker of some grammatical construct. The effect of the ``sa'' is to erase back to and including the last starting marker of the same kind." YACC: "If the word ``sa'' (selma'o SA) is identified, erase it and all preceding text as far back as necessary to make what follows attach to what precedes. (This rule is hard to formalize and may receive further definition later.)" EBNF: "null =3D utterance SA" None of those rules are very clear. One suggested implementation was to delete back to the preceding occurence of some word of the same selma'o as the word that follows. Another suggested implemantation was to select some constructs such that they are eligible for SA-deletion. Your proposed rule may be clear, but it is difficult to implement from a formal perspective (because the number of possible words, unlike the number of selma'o, is infinite). It could probably be done with a similar trick to the one used for the ZOI-delimiters. In any case, none of the rules seem to give anything very usable from a human perspective. You may come up with some simple examples that may seem to give something useful, but if you explore some more you always end up with unintuitive cases. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.