From lojban+bncCMvjp-TQBRCv1LbfBBoEaspHEg@googlegroups.com Fri May 14 12:53:38 2010 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1OD0ww-0003MH-Cg; Fri, 14 May 2010 12:53:38 -0700 Received: by wwf26 with SMTP id 26sf268887wwf.16 for ; Fri, 14 May 2010 12:53:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:mime-version:sender :received:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=TDMb1k402qSzU++aRebPg+9ufem18YwowDkjMt/0JLs=; b=2Lh/H/tU55fdAVu0Ae8KT8RpKntEraHHY8AP/ajFC9go/w7VIMyEot4dVW8Eru1xkq TBDXIkHDjezh3lLbyn7I/9g5yz6M76UbytNUsbFjLKYIVIzXmuey7yU7+xOxpxh55EnC v2yHx5wy1VEUnqRF5QmbT2UZo9xQRdUvSiDec= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; b=pp9YGmqQxChwKEOdRwqPtvn9O2FH9h4QeuN7BnqSuH51v1CVwdxM0fK9/d/i8RqFnc esMzssMJoavm60LQUjbv4etLxdJVWcNlndrWhmUUMjMU/2uc27+UgyhcHwWFaR8M2i9/ jDXS3obp5F8sQi+V0SxeVx+62DlqD6WxPceys= Received: by 10.223.64.212 with SMTP id f20mr315011fai.43.1273866799088; Fri, 14 May 2010 12:53:19 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.223.147.144 with SMTP id l16ls4201001fav.3.p; Fri, 14 May 2010 12:53:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.59.151 with SMTP id l23mr159731fah.28.1273866796095; Fri, 14 May 2010 12:53:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.59.151 with SMTP id l23mr159730fah.28.1273866796071; Fri, 14 May 2010 12:53:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-fx0-f46.google.com (mail-fx0-f46.google.com [209.85.161.46]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 8si2120332fav.1.2010.05.14.12.53.15; Fri, 14 May 2010 12:53:15 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of dbrockman@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.46 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.161.46; Received: by mail-fx0-f46.google.com with SMTP id 6so1900850fxm.5 for ; Fri, 14 May 2010 12:53:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.161.199 with SMTP id s7mr6698bkx.9.1273866794803; Fri, 14 May 2010 12:53:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.80.10 with HTTP; Fri, 14 May 2010 12:47:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Daniel Brockman Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 21:47:06 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Attitudinal scales and the meaning of {cu'i} To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of dbrockman@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.46 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=dbrockman@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: dbrockman@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >>> If you mean "za'u re'u", "a time after the first one", it also seems >>> compositional to me. >> >> It's compatible with the compositional meaning, but it usually >> means something more specific: "a time after the last time". > > Isn't every time (other than the first one) a time after the previous > one? What is the difference between "a time after the last time" and > "a time other than the first time"? You're right. The thing about {za'u re'u} is it suggests {za'u so'i re'u}. It does apply to any time other than the first time, but is *usually* used to indicate that something happens again after relatively many times. At least, that's my interpretation. But note that I'm not saying this that this is a problem! Most vague expressions will have SOME "more likely" subset of all the compositionally possible interpretations, often due to the language culture. I think this is impossible to avoid. What we can do is try to keep it at a reasonable level, and make the lexicalization explicit, instead of keeping it implicit, when possible. When a tanru gets to become too lexicalized, turn it into a lujvo so that tanru space can remain as compositional as possible. When a cmavo cluster becomes too lexicalized, coin a new cmavo so that the original cmavo can remain as compositional as possible, or explicitly define the cmavo cluster to have the more specific meaning. (This is done with {UI nai}, for example.) Of course, this is only a problem when the lexicalized meaning is a significant restriction of the compositionally possible meanings. For example, there's no need to do anything about {lo nu} just because we probably often think of it as a single lexical item, because the lexicalized meaning is identical to the compositional one. >> Which I guess is fine, but it is a slight lexicalization. > > Then every combination used more or less frequently is a > lexicalization. Is "la'e di'u" a lexicalization? Definitely. The question is: is the lexicalized meaning a significant restriction of the possible meanings? I'm not sure, but at least it doesn't seem like a huge restriction: {la'e di'u} is itself quite vague. But there's little question to me that it is a lexical item of its own in our brains. By the way, I think it may be a good idea to have an escape hatch for this kind of lexicalization. A way to say, "interpret this compositionally." Preferably as a UI. Then we would get "interpret this lexically" for free. For example: ZEI is "interpret this tanru lexically". But how do we say "do not interpret this tanru lexically"? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.