From lojban+bncCOzcnrWBFBC3o7rfBBoETDgkcQ@googlegroups.com Sat May 15 05:21:30 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f141.google.com ([209.85.211.141]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ODGMw-0008IW-C6; Sat, 15 May 2010 05:21:30 -0700 Received: by ywh5 with SMTP id 5sf2539306ywh.25 for ; Sat, 15 May 2010 05:21:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:sender :received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=f8XnWcKoF81OYRvTI9nvmmaPMxejbNYFK6bdEj/IHas=; b=ivmHtcOHWCHpi2uVYpd5OsrYleySjH8PvwxenL5BRMTozZoOnpz0py0sLJql2ZGT+B 5kD61PdRpUsgkp0p4xLRQLKXbX/uftwvK6+IjQw6pnp+Kw+3ay5uSyM3eYA8lGsJlapK DFTscj1CcU5+kxBXqM3dD16pv3Uppp/dYH2OA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; b=NQugg/MtnTIQlsUBb2lstamWuTvnJbzOouYntKBzyPFwLXL4zm8QSIlZ1GFFqBiBpy 1waXRE02suSP1TVioWLHvh8bU+rbn+FJwTJrpc5QxwYpLbLztxtfuIuVkQnfc50TdzPx bkHQLBdSzBaloDPvVj4vsu37qj+SObxe7VGK8= Received: by 10.150.119.36 with SMTP id r36mr238650ybc.23.1273926071933; Sat, 15 May 2010 05:21:11 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.151.93.13 with SMTP id v13ls2706738ybl.2.p; Sat, 15 May 2010 05:21:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.127.23 with SMTP id z23mr1066149ybc.7.1273926071131; Sat, 15 May 2010 05:21:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.127.23 with SMTP id z23mr1066148ybc.7.1273926071099; Sat, 15 May 2010 05:21:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f177.google.com (mail-qy0-f177.google.com [209.85.221.177]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id k42si4074688ybb.4.2010.05.15.05.21.10; Sat, 15 May 2010 05:21:10 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of pascal.akihiko@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.177 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.221.177; Received: by mail-qy0-f177.google.com with SMTP id 7so3967844qyk.7 for ; Sat, 15 May 2010 05:21:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.251.21 with SMTP id mq21mr622685qcb.177.1273926069921; Sat, 15 May 2010 05:21:09 -0700 (PDT) Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.42.202 with HTTP; Sat, 15 May 2010 05:21:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 13:21:09 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Attitudinal scales and the meaning of {cu'i} From: tijlan To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of pascal.akihiko@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.177 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=pascal.akihiko@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: pascal.akihiko@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016363b83aade26580486a10650 --0016363b83aade26580486a10650 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 14 May 2010 20:47, Daniel Brockman wrote: > The thing about {za'u re'u} is it suggests {za'u so'i re'u}. > It does apply to any time other than the first time, but is *usually* used > to indicate that something happens again after relatively many times. > When I use {za'u re'u}, I'm thinking about that the number in question is larger than another contextually understood number, not about whether or not the number refers to the quantity of "many". For example, if the event of a thief robbing my bag is contextually understood to have happened once in the past and now I want to report a new, second occurence of it, I would likely use {za'u re'u} as {re} is greater than {pa}. It would be the same as {re re'u} except that this wouldn't emphasize {re}'s being greater than certain numbers. If I had to express that the number in question is large to the extent of "many", I would say {so'i re'u}. {za'u so'i re'u} sounds to me more like {du'e re'u}, "(occuring as) the more than many-th (too-many-th) time". Also, {pa} is more than {no}, so perhaps {za'u re'u} could apply to "the first time" as well. > By the way, I think it may be a good idea to have an escape hatch for > this kind of lexicalization. A way to say, "interpret this > compositionally." > Preferably as a UI. Then we would get "interpret this lexically" for free. > > For example: ZEI is "interpret this tanru lexically". But how do we say > "do not interpret this tanru lexically"? > It might be irrelevant but {ta'u} comes to mind. I don't know much about the difference between {ta'u} "making a tanru" and {ta'unai} "expanding the tanru", though. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0016363b83aade26580486a10650 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 14 May 2010 20:47, Daniel Brockman <daniel@brockman.se&g= t; wrote:
The thing about {za'u re'u} is it suggests {za'u so'i re= 9;u}.
It does apply to any time other than the first time, but is *usually* used<= br> to indicate that something happens again after relatively many times.

When I use {za'u re'u}, I'm thinking about = that the number in question is larger than another contextually understood = number, not about whether or not the number refers to the quantity of "= ;many". For example, if the event of a thief robbing my bag is context= ually understood to have happened once in the past and now I want to report= a new, second occurence of it, I would likely use {za'u re'u} as {= re} is greater than {pa}. It would be the same as {re re'u} except that= this wouldn't emphasize {re}'s being greater than certain numbers.= =A0 If I had to express that the number in question is large to the extent = of "many", I would say {so'i re'u}.

{za'u so'i re'u} sounds to me more like {du'e re'u}= , "(occuring as) the more than many-th (too-many-th) time".
Also, {pa} is more than {no}, so perhaps {za'u re'u} could apply = to "the first time" as well.

=A0
By the way, I think it may be a good idea to have an escape hatch for
this kind of lexicalization. =A0A way to say, "interpret this composit= ionally."
Preferably as a UI. =A0Then we would get "interpret this lexically&quo= t; for free.

For example: ZEI is "interpret this tanru lexically". =A0But how = do we say
"do not interpret this tanru lexically"?
It might be irrelevant but {ta'u} comes to mind. I don't know much= about the difference between {ta'u} "making a tanru" and {ta= 'unai} "expanding the tanru", though.

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