From lojban+bncCOzcnrWBFBCX7sTfBBoElcqvQg@googlegroups.com Mon May 17 05:31:45 2010 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ODzTs-00010q-BR; Mon, 17 May 2010 05:31:44 -0700 Received: by wye20 with SMTP id 20sf1096282wye.16 for ; Mon, 17 May 2010 05:31:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:sender :received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=xCVBVmkDVSTwr9xhwuvhWLmRtuM8J5Q7KIFyiOyJ4yw=; b=b99SqLbrRdtptNWE3j/ojtKaDaAaFRzexeRXKcHeEeNQW/ZeZQsOP3M8MPDrbQKccM tKnne+fzABaVVnQ7cbDieiuEujC32gI4T/USIcNAG+yvdViX+xAfYxCw8CTI8pmixg8e TDKLAXfjmJwXF/kUsbIW53tL/Ev25TUGUHsaU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; b=BfSsEcNswu3yywkbnZnZU2G+icRo6bcO6SBEEOZ3t5Njbj5dvMDppPqhap6jAJzOYg s8gQp+4WBATSemjNL7g6VLHgY4z5Lz6P1BRt+poNz5meURB9e97qprGioSkG1qiULLOb bFKt8mz3ZTcngmgU5iaB1eQxuBjBxgHkDYACM= Received: by 10.223.81.194 with SMTP id y2mr669811fak.4.1274099479642; Mon, 17 May 2010 05:31:19 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.223.32.71 with SMTP id b7ls5503454fad.0.p; Mon, 17 May 2010 05:31:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.99.215 with SMTP id v23mr429728fan.19.1274099478376; Mon, 17 May 2010 05:31:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.99.215 with SMTP id v23mr429727fan.19.1274099478305; Mon, 17 May 2010 05:31:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f54.google.com (mail-vw0-f54.google.com [209.85.212.54]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 8si4337426fav.5.2010.05.17.05.31.16; Mon, 17 May 2010 05:31:17 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of pascal.akihiko@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.54 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.54; Received: by vws17 with SMTP id 17so1565003vws.27 for ; Mon, 17 May 2010 05:31:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.187.208 with SMTP id cx16mr1093099qcb.66.1274099476030; Mon, 17 May 2010 05:31:16 -0700 (PDT) Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.42.202 with HTTP; Mon, 17 May 2010 05:31:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 13:31:15 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Named multiples From: tijlan To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of pascal.akihiko@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.54 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=pascal.akihiko@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: pascal.akihiko@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016364d2e99ad732a0486c966a4 --0016364d2e99ad732a0486c966a4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 17 May 2010 02:28, Lindar wrote: > I do not like this idea at all. > Leave names be names. > {la cribe} is also a name. So you are talking about cmene (words that start with gadri {la}), not cmevla (words that end with a consonant). The proposed view is more about cmevla than cmene. It would not affect the grammar of cmene whatsoever, I think. There are obvious occasions in which we want to use a (lojbanized) foreign word as a selbri where any good gismu or lujvo alternative escapes, like {ti me la spagetis} or {ti cidjrspageti}. Unlike independent {la spagetis}, which is a name, {me la spagetis} is a non-name syntactic unit, selbri, and does not semantically differ from {spagetis} as selbri in the proposed view. That is, we could simplify the form of cmevla-based selbri without changing the grammar of cmene, names. Names would be left names. > What's wrong with {.i mi klama fu le mi karce no'u la .opel.} if you > have to be explicit about the brand name? > {le mi karce no'u la .opel.} might work if the car is *actually* named {la .opel.}. But isn't {la .opel.} the name of a company? If so, {no'u} is wrong, since it suggests "my car is a company". {pe} is better. {no'u} is for identification; {pe} is for association. If we make cmevla usable as selbri, then there's little to no point or > motive to create or use fu'ivla, and then we might as well just say > "fuck it" and use all English words written in Lojban phonology. This > is a horrible idea. > We could make a fu'ivla like "fakiti" to mean "fuck it", but we haven't. And if someone actually said {fakiti}, it wouldn't be approved by the community at large. For the same reason, a cmevla selbri like {fakit}, possible in the proposed scheme, wouldn't take root, I think. > By your logic we may as well say {.i mi .going. .stor. .xaus.}, and > then why bother? Just speak English. >_> > The official grammar already allows {mi me la going.stor.xaus}, {mi going zei stor zei xaus}, etc. Not all Lojbanists speak English. If I want to be understood in Lojbanistan, I should bother to speak Lojban optimally. (Nevertheless, if I was an English speaker and didn't know the valsi for "store", I don't think using "stor" as a makeshif and at the same time asking for correction would be reproachable.) To me you're now breaking the uniqueness of Lojban by essentially > making a really stupid shortcut so nobody has to use fu'ivla or lujvo > ever again. > This proposed rule for shortcut is not in itself stupid. What is stupid is the assumption that one can be a good lojbanist without learning the proper lojban valsi (gismu, lujvo, cmavo). -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0016364d2e99ad732a0486c966a4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 17 May 2010 02:28, Lindar &= lt;lindarthebard@yahoo.com&g= t; wrote:
I do not like this idea at all.
Leave names be names.

{la cribe} is also a name. S= o you are talking about cmene (words that start with gadri {la}), not cmevl= a (words that end with a consonant). The proposed view is more about cmevla= than cmene. It would not affect the grammar of cmene whatsoever, I think.<= br>
There are obvious occasions in which we want to use a (lojbanized) fore= ign word as a selbri where any good gismu or lujvo alternative escapes, lik= e {ti me la spagetis} or {ti cidjrspageti}. Unlike independent {la spagetis= }, which is a name, {me la spagetis} is a non-name syntactic unit, selbri, = and does not semantically differ from {spagetis} as selbri in the proposed = view. That is, we could simplify the form of cmevla-based selbri without ch= anging the grammar of cmene, names. Names would be left names.

=A0
What's wrong with {.i mi klama fu le mi karce no'u la .opel.} if yo= u
have to be explicit about the brand name?

{le mi k= arce no'u la .opel.} might work if the car is *actually* named {la .ope= l.}. But isn't {la .opel.} the name of a company? If so, {no'u} is = wrong, since it suggests "my car is a company". {pe} is better. {= no'u} is for identification; {pe} is for association.


If we make cmevla usable as selbri, then there's little to no point or<= br> motive to create or use fu'ivla, and then we might as well just say
"fuck it" and use all English words written in Lojban phonology. = This
is a horrible idea.

We could make a fu'ivla li= ke "fakiti" to mean "fuck it", but we haven't. And = if someone actually said {fakiti}, it wouldn't be approved by the commu= nity at large. For the same reason, a cmevla selbri like {fakit}, possible = in the proposed scheme, wouldn't take root, I think.

=A0
By your logic we may as well say {.i mi .going. .stor. .xaus.}, and
then why bother? Just speak English. >_>

The= official grammar already allows {mi me la going.stor.xaus}, {mi going zei = stor zei xaus}, etc.

Not all Lojbanists speak English. If I want to = be understood in Lojbanistan, I should bother to speak Lojban optimally. (N= evertheless, if I was an English speaker and didn't know the valsi for = "store", I don't think using "stor" as a makeshif a= nd at the same time asking for correction would be reproachable.)


To me you're now breaking the uniqueness of Lojban by essentially
making a really stupid shortcut so nobody has to use fu'ivla or lujvo ever again.

This proposed rule for shortcut is not= in itself stupid. What is stupid is the assumption that one can be a good = lojbanist without learning the proper lojban valsi (gismu, lujvo, cmavo).

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