From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRDNwtDfBBoEAcOr6Q@googlegroups.com Wed May 19 10:35:30 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1OEnAx-0003hx-JM; Wed, 19 May 2010 10:35:30 -0700 Received: by gwj18 with SMTP id 18sf6390657gwj.16 for ; Wed, 19 May 2010 10:35:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=qEfxMbp6CnqiSdH5yMvb6uJ+3cNn1VAuokzdcXXjEcM=; b=OlZvnEfAqoOdxArubbG8actOUMjJ3DxD9ipDcy+tedNADRqnZy75vM4H13ATCDm0t+ Le+8liV95tuFaLaL2Am5/tJinbir6gjhXvOuJaQDHInSt73ZmZQ2aR4lDQaHF2lnnW1W BRzAkuBFOYtozeH6JWUjEhJHdWEP2BFQ4Le4Y= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=B13RtzScQO9Qh9DbUfuX3C1iDyyXRpv4NE7COLwVk19vQGNhfo2Oyt7jUDjuWJIaxf 2F47S+vTxpMgkwbeC23TOYFJmuyGn1pfTEulABsufXiJNU4wXTIFQ3qu+wejPBiF3Ksq MW3TiJD9QuFl63DmpnLxjstbqI0JfJjLXDPaY= Received: by 10.150.242.3 with SMTP id p3mr9006ybh.47.1274290509258; Wed, 19 May 2010 10:35:09 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.151.33.42 with SMTP id l42ls112442ybj.1.p; Wed, 19 May 2010 10:35:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.47.32 with SMTP id u32mr51077ybu.11.1274290508190; Wed, 19 May 2010 10:35:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.47.32 with SMTP id u32mr51076ybu.11.1274290508170; Wed, 19 May 2010 10:35:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f183.google.com (mail-qy0-f183.google.com [209.85.221.183]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id s42si359878ybc.1.2010.05.19.10.35.07; Wed, 19 May 2010 10:35:07 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.183 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.221.183; Received: by mail-qy0-f183.google.com with SMTP id 13so11496962qyk.1 for ; Wed, 19 May 2010 10:35:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.221.6 with SMTP id ia6mr1901539qcb.159.1274290506281; Wed, 19 May 2010 10:35:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.82.11 with HTTP; Wed, 19 May 2010 10:35:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20100518160715.GA6617@sdf.lonestar.org> Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 14:35:06 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Named multiples From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.183 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 1:56 PM, Oleksii Melnyk wrote: > > That is. {la mersedes bents} always was {named (mersedes bents)}. And that would remain so. > After the > unification, {mersedes bents karce} can be {[named (mersedes)][named > bents][karce]} or {[named (mersedes bents)][karce]}, longer names will give > a lot more. Yes, if you want a multiple cmevla name as a single name you would still have to use "la": "lo karce pe la mersedes bents". >> And, like for any other word, you cannot pause in the middle of a >> cmevla > > Not sure. IMO, given the properly stressed speech, listener can recover the > accidental extra pause between the syllables of the long > gismu/lujvo/fu'ivla/cmevla, with some exceptions _like_ pause before "ku" in > "la SELBRIkuLIKENAMEs", which, most probably, will be detected as "parsing > error". Can you give an example? I can't understand what you are saying. Are you talking about human parsing (which uses the meaning of words to help with parsing them) or pure machine parsing of sounds without regard to meaning of the words? The latter is perfectly defined for Lojban, and is not in the least affected by the merging of cmevla with brivla. > It is impossible to avoid the extra pauses in spoken conversation (need to > take a breath in the middle of a-very-long-and-difficult-foreign-name, > network loose several voice packets, noise, speaker distraction). So, the > change can be dangerous. How so? The exact same problem exists with or without the change. The change has no relevance to word parsing. > BTW, pause in the speech is annoying, so, (while it is OK for written > language,) the spoken one, (trying to exploit the "isomorphism" with the > text,( full of cmene,)) can become a whole mess. Why would a text be full of cmevla? As you say, cmevla are a cumbersome type of word, so they don't blend well with normal Lojban words. Simplifying their syntax would not make them morphologically prettier, it would only make the syntax simpler. mu'o mi'e xorxes -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.