From lojban+bncCNuStaWoDxDqjYvfBBoEJdk6zA@googlegroups.com Thu May 06 06:41:19 2010 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1OA1KE-0000Qs-Oi; Thu, 06 May 2010 06:41:19 -0700 Received: by wwb13 with SMTP id 13sf3134762wwb.16 for ; Thu, 06 May 2010 06:41:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:message-id:date :from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Qi6fuCVomwPBGCWbUTOlhY+XzLGFynPFoX+ZbP4XpRY=; b=Ej/DSsr4ZASSBboAAZqWWk3+RS94o9iJmN4criCg0yrKnMLqeEu8jdMHYdTUwaUvYj SzLY9xypQ14YrsXN8uBB1MItdDxkVWaJeP/Bz7mDMXz5Gg3krT9UZzMM/bihACOKP6CJ BjggAiGkMqUipsOYWkxdp6BDpf9DE6upk918o= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from:user-agent :mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=e2dKktX5yjSztHSoNO5H0wJzuKeG6Ys/F2W6+FDxHyJb2MGtMj5LO2v/+udzWDEzGm uogh+SXrC9g5kEmQoxV7p8/7Y4apetseZx9y5OKia8KY1r3ioPXBqMIEari287aMLn+h Dnw6vVZ57SEEbqxkUcPhoYWnueLjRuwIDALMU= Received: by 10.223.6.193 with SMTP id a1mr4176882faa.46.1273153258065; Thu, 06 May 2010 06:40:58 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.37.82 with SMTP id w18ls4276747wbd.3.p; Thu, 06 May 2010 06:40:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.153.198 with SMTP id l6mr334217wbw.17.1273153255300; Thu, 06 May 2010 06:40:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.153.198 with SMTP id l6mr334216wbw.17.1273153255253; Thu, 06 May 2010 06:40:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f50.google.com (mail-ww0-f50.google.com [74.125.82.50]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id g1si401526wbg.6.2010.05.06.06.40.54; Thu, 06 May 2010 06:40:54 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.50 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.50; Received: by wwa36 with SMTP id 36so524569wwa.23 for ; Thu, 06 May 2010 06:40:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.129.139 with SMTP id o11mr4180806wbs.113.1273153254106; Thu, 06 May 2010 06:40:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.65] (87-194-76-9.bethere.co.uk [87.194.76.9]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id b2sm7456765wbb.14.2010.05.06.06.40.52 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 06 May 2010 06:40:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4BE2C6E3.50109@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 14:40:51 +0100 From: And Rosta User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com CC: John Quijada Subject: Re: [lojban] Comparison to Ilaksh? References: <4BE21192.5090804@lojban.org> <4BE2396F.2000003@lojban.org> In-Reply-To: <4BE2396F.2000003@lojban.org> X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.50 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=and.rosta@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: and.rosta@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert LeChevalier, On 06/05/2010 04:37: > But Ilaksh's inventor seems to make no claims at all related to Lojban,= =20 > and I have no reason to believe he ever heard of Lojban. He has heard of Lojban. Lojban is well-known, as is his widely-admired Ithk= uil/Ilaksh. =20 >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban#Comparison_with_other_logical_langua= ges=20 >> >=20 > Where is there a claim that Ilaksh is a "logical language"? >=20 > The word "rational" is used somewhere in the description, but the way it= =20 > is used, it seems merely to mean "designed" and tries to follow rules,=20 > not that it has anything to do with "logic" per se. Most artificial=20 > languages are "rational" in that sense, but relatively few are claimed=20 > to be "logical". What Lojban and Ithkuil/Ilaksh have in common is that they are the two most= fully elaborated/documented/specified published engelangs, so two of the m= ost impressive achievements in the world of invented languages. As for how they differ: * Lojban was developed piecemeal, by committee, and generally satisfied its= elf with the rule of thumb that "barely good enough is good enough (because= then you can get on with building the user-community)", whereas Ilaksh had= a single inventor and a single overarching integrated design and aimed for= optimal solutions to its design goals. * Considered as pure language designs, Ithkuil/Ilaksh is more impressive th= an Lojban. Lojban makes virtually everybody who encounters it feel they cou= ld improve on it, whereas nobody thinks that with Ithkuil/Ilaksh, which sim= ply inspires awe. However, Lojban stands out as a virtually unique example = of a language invented by a large team of very thoughtful people; and after= Esperanto, it probably has easily the largest community of active supporte= rs, setting aside languages like Klingon and Na'vi that draw on a larger fa= nbase and are commercially promoted. * Lojban aimed to be human-speakable and to acquire a speech community. Ith= kuil did not aim to be usable by humans in real-time. Ilaksh is less phonet= ically daunting than Ithkuil, but still does not aim to be usable by humans= in real-time. Neither Ithkuil nor Ilaksh was designed with the aim of acqu= iring a speech community, though their excellence has nevertheless attracte= d to Ilaksh a user/learner-community, I believe. * Lojban aimed to be able to be logically unambiguous, and to some extent t= ried to be culturally neutral and minimalist in the semantic categories it = imposes on the world-view of its users. Ithkuil/Ilaksh was designed from a = Cognitive Linguistics perspective, which doesn't make much of a song and da= nce about predicate logic; and absolutely fundamental to its design are imm= ensely elaborate and highly specified multiple semantic taxonomies it impos= es on the world-view of its speakers. By encoding these taxonomies morpholo= gically in ingeniously concise ways, Ithkuil/Ilaksh allows for the expressi= on of extraordinarily rich meanings in extraordinarily compressed forms.=20 --And. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.