From lojban+bncCMvjp-TQBRC9yIrgBBoEdaPkWA@googlegroups.com Sun May 30 10:45:54 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1OIma0-0005oF-9R; Sun, 30 May 2010 10:45:54 -0700 Received: by gyd5 with SMTP id 5sf3217657gyd.16 for ; Sun, 30 May 2010 10:45:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:mime-version:sender :received:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=kWH/6Xdo9ZjfNL9kKuUdrhv+7RfHDD6bVcxGzHHrm+E=; b=ziEPM9UDAozqK6W+SAOw2PzIs/yb0fVUauq82LfTNdydfLpoE7odpGJLmkSnVGCQeU bpOsErA1niI6BojoOzp1mdC9CGmlxVqBFK5Sa3OSXpSyPkUv9kyCfiKgMUIgke9BAekX aQIcOMZPaIqFjP51r/GHScegOh0vPA668iGEM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; b=xRd6se2+MKQv7oHYXigei9bG2UzttjshOOj1AQt+d+vU+2FJKZG0X1MeZjOY5D4nLR GafLcNCWsi8bBk9XWrtlPY9/LfYWJSn/LhVmK+ot2HSFe+/4UulWgF6vV4COLIfDE/DH /EVJFHaoc/hDsNczVu3hOL7XdpMhuFSV1YrTo= Received: by 10.151.89.10 with SMTP id r10mr144607ybl.84.1275241533175; Sun, 30 May 2010 10:45:33 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.151.33.42 with SMTP id l42ls1352456ybj.1.p; Sun, 30 May 2010 10:45:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.167.27 with SMTP id p27mr1389103ybe.2.1275241532483; Sun, 30 May 2010 10:45:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.167.27 with SMTP id p27mr1389102ybe.2.1275241532450; Sun, 30 May 2010 10:45:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gy0-f182.google.com (mail-gy0-f182.google.com [209.85.160.182]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id v3si5893788ybe.6.2010.05.30.10.45.31; Sun, 30 May 2010 10:45:31 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of dbrockman@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.182 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.182; Received: by gyh20 with SMTP id 20so2542363gyh.27 for ; Sun, 30 May 2010 10:45:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.5.22 with SMTP id h22mr3484330ani.104.1275241531159; Sun, 30 May 2010 10:45:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.100.249.14 with HTTP; Sun, 30 May 2010 10:45:11 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <1275230910.1511.5.camel@gumri> From: Daniel Brockman Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 19:45:11 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Named multiples To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of dbrockman@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.182 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=dbrockman@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: dbrockman@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Obviously we're never going to agree on whether {la} "removes" the meaning from whatever comes after or if it "retains" the meaning. In fact, there are not just two levels to this. Already, {la irc} is vague about whether spelling or pronunciation is important. Already, {la donri} can be translated literally into Swedish but not English. Other names are relatively "transparent": {la dansu be fi'o kansa lo labno} can be translated into any language with an acceptable result. Some names are strings of rafsi. Some are brivla with dummy consonants tacked on; some are brivla with vowels chopped off. Some, like {daniel}, are almost completely intact and can be both phonologically and letter-wise translated into any language with an acceptable result; others have been mangled to fit Lojban phonology and morphology and must be "unmangled" when translated into another language. There are many kinds of names in Lojban, and that's okay. So it makes sense for Lojban to simply not specify one way or the other. We should allow both "meaningful" and "meaningless" names; both names where spelling is important and names where pronunciation is important. In almost all cases, this will be totally irrelevant. In most other cases, context will be sufficient. For the last few cases, we could come up with a system for indicating the level of meaning. But {la} by itself cannot do it. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.