From lojban+bncCNuStaWoDxC6wIzfBBoEELO5Vg@googlegroups.com Thu May 06 13:02:26 2010 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1OA7H0-0005F1-T0; Thu, 06 May 2010 13:02:26 -0700 Received: by wwi17 with SMTP id 17sf95052wwi.16 for ; Thu, 06 May 2010 13:02:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:message-id:date :from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=nfN2fz8z/IvHhao0Xhbogp63jepklSg1ZBUI6ZG3UrQ=; b=JTg26L+uxeVHEPVXgIoARyLuaereuF2FWiRdA622r3HLHPQwiTPASU6yR+e10Y6EsL TjKPdYGqJh6V2nnRy6Pu5IMo4qwZg3j8X9YD/0ripXxEOvd69ZD/ryxGa5Yfl2QHXZx3 XN83c8XWJ3CAJl2tTm5Nzd0zZhyCXjdxV+NtU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from:user-agent :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=WKB+mHwmzfZKSSJhnsOzCFaTMZ/UoCl/U9vaV2I5Y96s7ls3gkMgqj1ovCdkG+9fRK 2j65IncVvjaU2BpeVW17s8HJtGIzahbU9J+q4J55pszUo1XuxAx7wlV/zo61JiTag85h 4kvU4oqtvBDTjDKJv6tDPz3fZtsgsOpwryuw4= Received: by 10.223.132.205 with SMTP id c13mr4335548fat.3.1273176122353; Thu, 06 May 2010 13:02:02 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.198.222 with SMTP id v72ls2466572wen.3.p; Thu, 06 May 2010 13:02:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.87.13 with SMTP id x13mr1082359wee.22.1273176120865; Thu, 06 May 2010 13:02:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.87.13 with SMTP id x13mr1082358wee.22.1273176120845; Thu, 06 May 2010 13:02:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f181.google.com (mail-wy0-f181.google.com [74.125.82.181]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id p18si1591242wbc.4.2010.05.06.13.01.59; Thu, 06 May 2010 13:01:59 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.181 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.181; Received: by wyb36 with SMTP id 36so138326wyb.26 for ; Thu, 06 May 2010 13:01:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.93.79 with SMTP id k57mr1134644wef.161.1273176119660; Thu, 06 May 2010 13:01:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.65] (87-194-76-9.bethere.co.uk [87.194.76.9]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id t70sm732409weq.2.2010.05.06.13.01.58 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 06 May 2010 13:01:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4BE32035.6000905@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 21:01:57 +0100 From: And Rosta User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Comparison to Ilaksh? References: <4BE21192.5090804@lojban.org> <4BE2396F.2000003@lojban.org> <4BE2C6E3.50109@gmail.com> <4BE2CD7B.3010306@lojban.org> In-Reply-To: <4BE2CD7B.3010306@lojban.org> X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.181 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=and.rosta@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: and.rosta@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert LeChevalier, On 06/05/2010 15:08: > And Rosta wrote: >> * Lojban aimed to be human-speakable and to acquire a speech=20 >> community. Ithkuil did not aim to be usable by humans in real-time.=20 >> Ilaksh is less phonetically daunting than Ithkuil, but still does not=20 >> aim to be usable by humans in real-time. >=20 > I guess this is something I'll never understand. To me, if it isn't=20 > usable as a language, then it isn't a language. It might be a=20 > language-related art project, as many artlangs seem to be, but I won't=20 > pretend to understand or appreciate art for its own sake. >=20 > To each, their own. As we know, we disagree about whether being used is criterial for languageh= ood. You see language as fundamentally a kind of human behaviour, stuff tha= t *happens*, whereas I see language as a tool, and an unused tool is still = a tool. But setting that definitional difference aside, I wonder if you would be si= milarly baffled by architects designing buildings that are never going to b= e built, NASA scientists designing spaceships that will forever remain blue= prints? The building may be beautiful, and may in its conception and elabor= ation elevate the spirit, even if it remains unbuilt. The spaceship design = may advance science even if it remains a blueprint. Similarly, Ithkuil has = both aesthetic and scientific value by virtue simply of its design. To my own thinking, the actual use of an invented language by a speech comm= unity is especially valuable only if the design of the language is an impro= vement on other (natural or invented) languages' designs. Hence my attracti= on to the overall Logban project with its goal of creating and bringing int= o use a viable logical language, and my comparative disdain for the design = of Lojban itself and the issue of whether it acquires a speech community. (= When I speak of "comparative disdain", I don't disdain the importance Lojba= n has to others such as you; you have invested enormous effort into the pro= ject, and because I wish you well, I wish your endeavours and projects well= too.) --And. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.