From lojban+bncCMvjp-TQBRC254_fBBoEByyq7w@googlegroups.com Fri May 07 04:04:45 2010 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1OALME-0006qW-Nr; Fri, 07 May 2010 04:04:44 -0700 Received: by wyb36 with SMTP id 36sf413651wyb.16 for ; Fri, 07 May 2010 04:04:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:mime-version:sender :received:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=ejLRzSFl3Umm07tRbT2/2CMaZ1xWenJbkQV8RxHC4ac=; b=Zgk6SvvyYC55IGtlh42V1fbgj6+qKzUx7N71aWUQ96BTjNT07yP0E7D7MsojY3h2Up 0TzmXx2BIYLxTBcX37jC3gliPmr5sAVyQer/H3TT94H8vfXgxbVIFF948W/RdkOOG8BG /WrZjrGIe2at/mD5yJOZrzJTKKmmL/IaQ2sxE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:from:date:message-id :subject:to:x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=32qOjRkHLQwujKLEm2szUSiqokLBmoEdLqTJbWsIO2j+I1xgOazoSw7S/GNGa5sfl6 JI7WQ1f/jQ+0Kh5EBRF417lyY0wgPn8e2f8YPw0zSd8b1bNVSyXeEjEqZrdZw10wxgjS C89ciV/YbnBSbQjls43KknA53rveqUn5jY2r8= Received: by 10.223.4.136 with SMTP id 8mr4414931far.10.1273230262482; Fri, 07 May 2010 04:04:22 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.223.66.18 with SMTP id l18ls10682430fai.1.p; Fri, 07 May 2010 04:04:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.144.71 with SMTP id y7mr92314fau.16.1273230260669; Fri, 07 May 2010 04:04:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.144.71 with SMTP id y7mr92313fau.16.1273230260647; Fri, 07 May 2010 04:04:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f216.google.com (mail-bw0-f216.google.com [209.85.218.216]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 22si839353fas.4.2010.05.07.04.04.19; Fri, 07 May 2010 04:04:19 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of dbrockman@gmail.com designates 209.85.218.216 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.218.216; Received: by bwz8 with SMTP id 8so542813bwz.3 for ; Fri, 07 May 2010 04:04:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.7.194 with SMTP id e2mr1812bke.103.1273230259426; Fri, 07 May 2010 04:04:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.163.144 with HTTP; Fri, 7 May 2010 04:03:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Daniel Brockman Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 13:03:59 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: [lojban] Named multiples To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of dbrockman@gmail.com designates 209.85.218.216 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=dbrockman@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: dbrockman@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I've had this discussion with donri from time to time, but we're both about equally no'e certu, so it's time to bring it up here. (I especially look forward to hearing xorxes' view on this.) So, Sometimes when referring by name to a multiple of things, our natural language intuition conflicts with our Lojbanic intuition. For example, I drive an Opel, so in Lojban I could say .i mi klama fu lo me la .opel. The {lo me}, which is supposed to be a no-op, comes from my natural language intuition: I couldn't say that I "drive Opel," and transferred to Lojban that means I can't say {klama fu la .opel.}, so {lo me la .opel.} is a lame attempt to express "_an_ Opel." But that intuition is malglico (or malzvero): I also couldn't say that I "drive car," but in Lojban I _can_ say {klama fu lo karce}; there's definitely no need to say {klama fu lo me lo karce}. Lojban is ostensibly unmarked for number, but we Lojbanists are not used to named multiples; we only ever talk about named singles, like {la .lojban.} or {la .xorxes.}. Because of this de facto convention, we assume that {la .opel.} refers to a company or a *type* of car (singles), rather than to the cars (a multiple). So in practice {la} is not number-agnostic. But there's no ban on named multiples, so {klama fu la .opel.} should be perfectly okay, since it's obvious from context that in this case {la .opel.} is a multiple: "the cars named Opel." Discuss. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.