From lojban+bncCMvjp-TQBRC89JDfBBoEdY9PmQ@googlegroups.com Fri May 07 09:05:37 2010 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1OAQ3Q-0003cs-6i; Fri, 07 May 2010 09:05:37 -0700 Received: by wyb36 with SMTP id 36sf532846wyb.16 for ; Fri, 07 May 2010 09:05:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:mime-version:received :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=/c5NfLd14TsDXn5baU73rm0F80GE7gcFoWGNEL00qZg=; b=VQut7fv63+EN7+tXmyCvsVImCRx0nv+cVDpLVLLn6+RFndSWmnc38eQ8efX1rnKl8R wGC05sR1PD1rVyZFQtUbo1aQ679bzACSjCrndr+hhcoF1MLFQxcZFdWPTIvNnoVmvUvv yh38WcrV6IJUzFtnwEop6VRtDBH7sUxOfK8q0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=s536o8Foru0JO5TzKmcuDaE+vZ88WMW6sJnhFqakrRBuuOuF39KcL4p1xQBxuhwt0U a6+Kxfy8NRdZlJBnjBok7+79Vei0/JAjHANfEwsl46yjvljruZDWJt3Ie0djkr2c0T0g kwR8oHq2uLcvwCUj6LaJM/FMFZwlKoyqM6LRk= Received: by 10.223.58.146 with SMTP id g18mr13871fah.39.1273248316137; Fri, 07 May 2010 09:05:16 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.35.68 with SMTP id o4ls3693750bkd.1.p; Fri, 07 May 2010 09:05:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.161.203 with SMTP id s11mr12076bkx.36.1273248313174; Fri, 07 May 2010 09:05:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.161.203 with SMTP id s11mr12075bkx.36.1273248313138; Fri, 07 May 2010 09:05:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f209.google.com (mail-bw0-f209.google.com [209.85.218.209]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 12si287350bwz.1.2010.05.07.09.05.12; Fri, 07 May 2010 09:05:12 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of dbrockman@gmail.com designates 209.85.218.209 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.218.209; Received: by mail-bw0-f209.google.com with SMTP id 1so688229bwz.22 for ; Fri, 07 May 2010 09:05:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.21.17 with SMTP id h17mr242835bkb.197.1273248309636; Fri, 07 May 2010 09:05:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.163.144 with HTTP; Fri, 7 May 2010 09:04:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Daniel Brockman Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 18:04:45 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Named multiples To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of dbrockman@gmail.com designates 209.85.218.209 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=dbrockman@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: dbrockman@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2010/5/7 Jorge Llamb=EDas : > On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 8:03 AM, Daniel Brockman wrot= e: >> (I especially look forward to hearing xorxes' view on this.) > > My view on this is that CMEVLA should be merged with BRIVLA. There is > really no reason to artificially restrict the syntactic possibilities > of CMEVLA. > >> For example, I drive an Opel, so in Lojban I could say >> >> =A0 =A0.i mi klama fu lo me la .opel. > > With ".opel." as a predicate, this would be: > > =A0 =A0 =A0 mi klama fu lo .opel. That is definitely an interesting view. I knew I wouldn't be disappointed, but I didn't expect this kind of almost psychedelic proposition. I'm a little afraid to comment on this other than to say that I'm intrigued= . >> Lojban is ostensibly unmarked for number, but we Lojbanists are >> not used to named multiples; we only ever talk about named >> singles, like {la .lojban.} or {la .xorxes.}. > > Right, because we usually do give names only to singles. "Opel" is not > really the "name" of your car, at least not any more than your dog's > name is "dog". "Opel" is what your car is: > > =A0 lo do karce cu .opel. In effect, what you're saying is that you want to completely merge cmevla and fu'ivla. That makes sense to me, and actually seems similar to the intention of the language designers --- what with their talk of "stage-2 fu'ivla" and everything. >> But there's no ban on named multiples, so {klama fu la .opel.} >> should be perfectly okay, since it's obvious from context that in >> this case {la .opel.} is a multiple: "the cars named Opel." > > But the cars are not "named" Opel any more than spaghetti are "named" > spaghetti. If all "la" does is "just like 'lo' except that the word > that follows ends in a consonant instead of a vowel", then we wouldn't > need "la" at all. What "la" says is that we don't care at all about > the meaning of the word that folllows, we care only about its form. > But when you say that you drive an Opel, the word Opel does have a > meaning, just like when you say you eat spaghetti, the word spaghetti > does have a meaning. I don't really see what you're saying here, unless you also want to argue that {.xorxes.} has a "meaning". 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