From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhCXxpHfBBoEW5XGyw@googlegroups.com Fri May 07 11:59:55 2010 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1OASm6-0007qk-Bc; Fri, 07 May 2010 11:59:54 -0700 Received: by wyb36 with SMTP id 36sf625251wyb.16 for ; Fri, 07 May 2010 11:59:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=tMPqyLtJgRkN7V6NOMMdrel78PZExPRkKv7Z0cr2i30=; b=FV+3nLPRVYLoULmhj2Mg1ehtDk/vrOXwp6blfUKBWtqeWTHy0SDe12FkqHoWdo5oiZ KgA5jMS7PfTCAgJC7YDHbd78HQJXSZu8qGn/MAZswEzQClosN6G/rO3894pf9hoHmnsI 1Dr4gQDrf5Bibvyb1qNsFLDz+MZ+TWb9Lh44o= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=IOOkpsgB5Uba0Mcbp8UUiF+mOnq2K4SNVi0bnYKpIjG+0UiyXsf3ey1D77Pf98JK03 6zKcYRhhFiZLsC+/iHES6jvjswtuDIF6XBuXiL4xh9PWLWfD5y+t8Zxqv3FWfB9RFFXH 6Dg5dSlJEn+Q44cZQ2nAchSHjC+fea9yaaMsw= Received: by 10.223.13.196 with SMTP id d4mr57711faa.23.1273258775113; Fri, 07 May 2010 11:59:35 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.37.82 with SMTP id w18ls6304140wbd.3.p; Fri, 07 May 2010 11:59:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.133.130 with SMTP id f2mr36859wbt.6.1273258771169; Fri, 07 May 2010 11:59:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.133.130 with SMTP id f2mr36858wbt.6.1273258771115; Fri, 07 May 2010 11:59:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f48.google.com (mail-ww0-f48.google.com [74.125.82.48]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id p33si2932772wba.3.2010.05.07.11.59.30; Fri, 07 May 2010 11:59:30 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.48 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.48; Received: by mail-ww0-f48.google.com with SMTP id 28so626364wwb.35 for ; Fri, 07 May 2010 11:59:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.93.79 with SMTP id k57mr312357wef.161.1273258769911; Fri, 07 May 2010 11:59:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.51.7 with HTTP; Fri, 7 May 2010 11:59:29 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201005062238.58059.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 12:59:29 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] The North Wind and the Sun From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.48 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6d64544b01082048605a8b9 --0016e6d64544b01082048605a8b9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2010/5/7 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 2:58 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > > 2010/5/7 Jorge Llamb=EDas > >> > >> On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 1:46 PM, Jonathan Jones > wrote: > >> > May I suggest a lujvo involving gasnu? > >> > gasnu gau "do" "x1 [person/agent] is an agentive cause of event x2; > *x1 > >> > does/brings about x2*" > >> > > >> > For example: > >> > gauju'o - g1=3Dd1 knows how to bring about g2=3Dd2 > >> > >> You could do that, but it would be a non-compositional lujvo. You > >> cannot explain the meaning of that "gauju'o" in terms of "djuno", you > >> have to rely on the English gloss. It does not mean "ko'a djuno lo > >> du'u ko'a gasnu ko'e" or anything like that. > >> > > I wouldn't be trying to explain gauju'o in terms of djuno. I would > explain > > it in terms of gasnu. > > (BTW, it should be "gaurju'o") > > OK, what would the explanation be (in Lojban)? And why would you use > "djuno" as part of the lujvo if it plays no role in explaining the > meaning of the lujvo? > Attempting this, I find I can only do this using gasnu, djuno, and tadji, using djuno as the main bridi: {ko'a djuno lodu'u tadji be lonu ko'e se gasnu} Also, I realized that, once again, I did the lujvo backwards. I should've said {jungau}. Interestingly, jbofi'e returns this for {jungau}: "[1(2*[jungau1 (inform) :] **zo'e* *unspecif it*)2 *[is, does]* =AB3*jungau= * * inform*=BB3 (4*[jungau2 (know-er(s)) :] **zo'e* *unspecif it*)4 (5*[jungau3 (fact(s) known) :] **zo'e* *unspecif it*)5 (6*[jungau4 (known subject(s)) := ] **zo'e* *unspecif it*)6 (7*[jungau5 (epistemology for knowing(s)) :] **zo'e= * *unspecif it*)7]1" Which doesn't really make any sense to me. x2-x5 just {djuno}'s place structure moved one step down, and I have no idea what the x1 is. What would {ko'a jungau ko'e ko'i ko'o ko'u} be in English? > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0016e6d64544b01082048605a8b9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
2010/5/7 Jorge Llamb=EDas <= jjllambias@gmail.com>=
On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 2:58 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2010/5/7 Jorge Llamb=EDas <= jjllambias@gmail.com>
>>
>> On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 1:46 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > May I suggest a lujvo involving gasnu?
>> > gasnu gau "do" "x1 [person/agent] is an agenti= ve cause of event x2; *x1
>> > does/brings about x2*"
>> >
>> > For example:
>> > gauju'o - g1=3Dd1 knows how to bring about g2=3Dd2
>>
>> You could do that, but it would be a non-compositional lujvo. You<= br> >> cannot explain the meaning of that "gauju'o" in term= s of "djuno", you
>> have to rely on the English gloss. It does not mean "ko'a= djuno lo
>> du'u ko'a gasnu ko'e" or anything like that.
>>
> I wouldn't be trying to explain gauju'o in terms of djuno. I w= ould explain
> it in terms of gasnu.

(BTW, it should be "gaurju'o")

OK, what would the explanation be (in Lojban)? And why would you use
"djuno" as part of the lujvo if it plays no role in explaining th= e
meaning of the lujvo?

Attempting this, I find I ca= n only do this using gasnu, djuno, and tadji, using djuno as the main bridi= : {ko'a djuno lodu'u tadji be lonu ko'e se gasnu}

Also, = I realized that, once again, I did the lujvo backwards. I should've sai= d {jungau}. Interestingly, jbofi'e returns this for {jungau}:
"[1(2[jungau1 (inform) :] zo'e unspecif it)2 [is, does] =AB3jungau inform=BB3 (<= sub class=3D"parenmark">4[jungau2 (know-er(s= )) :] zo'e unspecif it)4= (5[jungau3 (fact(s= )=20 known) :] zo'e unspecif it)5= (6[jungau4 (known= =20 subject(s)) :] zo'e unspecif it)6= (7[jungau5 (episte= mology=20 for knowing(s)) :] zo'e unspecif it)7= ]1"
Which doesn't really make an= y sense to me. x2-x5 just {djuno}'s place structure moved one step down= , and I have no idea what the x1 is.
What would {ko'a jungau ko'e ko'i ko'o ko'u} be in Engl= ish?

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu
=

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