From lojban+bncCJuP2OfEBBCqyZHfBBoE5v9M0g@googlegroups.com Fri May 07 12:06:38 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f153.google.com ([209.85.221.153]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1OASsa-0000Sd-Td; Fri, 07 May 2010 12:06:37 -0700 Received: by qyk17 with SMTP id 17sf732599qyk.21 for ; Fri, 07 May 2010 12:06:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:sender :received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=DrhxTEboeiGlQE4fZ/DqPDnEd6gONMxpBbU838NUu04=; b=M1ZBOTrqfU0e4nOBzsNxnkA+DrQ07fRcE1EHZr69yAiFR4gPUHx65lo0/DU8emSs+q VWQuugKApixeN1r4hROFahPHaogEjm1anrqVQ/yQ5cmCfsHR5LjErq9cCBGEZNiQyPuG JtNwbQcFboQWLdFQ/xbPjD2MvSW2u7wPEQtG0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; b=4BsdAqAS+llVTpgggUa8EspONs+XTw1sLv7z4rrH3JUyvFx5c5J6YjTUNLrHR/umU1 voPDYYFM567h1yr9uKvWwNEtU5Em4MJjbk01pOQutvB86ilmtPCaX5/JP5jWzsKSK5ne oUwPNtvDvok0/+g4okAKIqkLfSPuCkr/diTjA= Received: by 10.224.115.71 with SMTP id h7mr18797qaq.38.1273259178173; Fri, 07 May 2010 12:06:18 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.86.223 with SMTP id t31ls4910553qal.7.p; Fri, 07 May 2010 12:06:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.81.132 with SMTP id x4mr37774qak.3.1273259176931; Fri, 07 May 2010 12:06:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.81.132 with SMTP id x4mr37772qak.3.1273259176733; Fri, 07 May 2010 12:06:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f41.google.com (mail-vw0-f41.google.com [209.85.212.41]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 24si483379qyk.6.2010.05.07.12.06.15; Fri, 07 May 2010 12:06:15 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of adamgarrigus@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.41 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.41; Received: by mail-vw0-f41.google.com with SMTP id 10so686747vws.28 for ; Fri, 07 May 2010 12:06:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.157.134 with SMTP id b6mr337030vcx.63.1273259175204; Fri, 07 May 2010 12:06:15 -0700 (PDT) Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.44.206 with HTTP; Fri, 7 May 2010 12:06:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201005062238.58059.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 15:06:15 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] The North Wind and the Sun From: "komfo,amonan" To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of adamgarrigus@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.41 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=adamgarrigus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: adamgarrigus@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e0cb4e887af1d8591f048605c05a --e0cb4e887af1d8591f048605c05a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 2:59 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > 2010/5/7 Jorge Llamb=EDas > >> On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 2:58 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote= : >> > 2010/5/7 Jorge Llamb=EDas >> >> >> >> On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 1:46 PM, Jonathan Jones >> wrote: >> >> > May I suggest a lujvo involving gasnu? >> >> > gasnu gau "do" "x1 [person/agent] is an agentive cause of event x2; >> *x1 >> >> > does/brings about x2*" >> >> > >> >> > For example: >> >> > gauju'o - g1=3Dd1 knows how to bring about g2=3Dd2 >> >> >> >> You could do that, but it would be a non-compositional lujvo. You >> >> cannot explain the meaning of that "gauju'o" in terms of "djuno", you >> >> have to rely on the English gloss. It does not mean "ko'a djuno lo >> >> du'u ko'a gasnu ko'e" or anything like that. >> >> >> > I wouldn't be trying to explain gauju'o in terms of djuno. I would >> explain >> > it in terms of gasnu. >> >> (BTW, it should be "gaurju'o") >> >> OK, what would the explanation be (in Lojban)? And why would you use >> "djuno" as part of the lujvo if it plays no role in explaining the >> meaning of the lujvo? >> > > Attempting this, I find I can only do this using gasnu, djuno, and tadji, > using djuno as the main bridi: {ko'a djuno lodu'u tadji be lonu ko'e se > gasnu} > > Also, I realized that, once again, I did the lujvo backwards. I should've > said {jungau}. Interestingly, jbofi'e returns this for {jungau}: > "[1(2*[jungau1 (inform) :] **zo'e* *unspecif it*)2 *[is, does]* =AB3*jung= au* > *inform*=BB3 (4*[jungau2 (know-er(s)) :] **zo'e* *unspecif it*)4 (5*[jung= au3 > (fact(s) known) :] **zo'e* *unspecif it*)5 (6*[jungau4 (known subject(s)) > :] **zo'e* *unspecif it*)6 (7*[jungau5 (epistemology for knowing(s)) :] *= * > zo'e* *unspecif it*)7]1" > Which doesn't really make any sense to me. x2-x5 just {djuno}'s place > structure moved one step down, and I have no idea what the x1 is. > What would {ko'a jungau ko'e ko'i ko'o ko'u} be in English? > x1 informs x2 of fact x3 about subject x4 [x5 seems spurious here, as the epistemology is covered by the fact of x1's informing x2]. When you are the agentive cause of someone knowing something, you have informed him/her. mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --e0cb4e887af1d8591f048605c05a Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 2:59 PM, Jonathan Jones <= span dir=3D"ltr"><eyeonus@gmail.com= > wrote:
2010/5/7 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 2:58 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2010/5/7 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
>>
>> On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 1:46 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote: >> > May I suggest a lujvo involving gasnu?
>> > gasnu gau "do" "x1 [person/agent] is an agenti= ve cause of event x2; *x1
>> > does/brings about x2*"
>> >
>> > For example:
>> > gauju'o - g1=3Dd1 knows how to bring about g2=3Dd2
>>
>> You could do that, but it would be a non-compositional lujvo. You<= br> >> cannot explain the meaning of that "gauju'o" in term= s of "djuno", you
>> have to rely on the English gloss. It does not mean "ko'a= djuno lo
>> du'u ko'a gasnu ko'e" or anything like that.
>>
> I wouldn't be trying to explain gauju'o in terms of djuno. I w= ould explain
> it in terms of gasnu.

(BTW, it should be "gaurju'o")

OK, what would the explanation be (in Lojban)? And why would you use
"djuno" as part of the lujvo if it plays no role in explaining th= e
meaning of the lujvo?

Attempting this, I fin= d I can only do this using gasnu, djuno, and tadji, using djuno as the main= bridi: {ko'a djuno lodu'u tadji be lonu ko'e se gasnu}

Also, I realized that, once again, I did the lujvo backwards. I should&= #39;ve said {jungau}. Interestingly, jbofi'e returns this for {jungau}:=
"[1(2[jungau1 (inform) :] zo'e unspecif it)2 [is, does] =AB3jungau inform=BB3 (4[jungau2 (know-er(s)) :] zo'e unspecif it)4 (5[jungau3 (fact(s)=20 known) :] zo'e unspecif it)5 (6[jungau4 (known=20 subject(s)) :] zo'e unspecif it)6 (7[jungau5 (epistemology=20 for knowing(s)) :] zo'e unspecif it)7]1"
Which doesn't rea= lly make any sense to me. x2-x5 just {djuno}'s place structure moved on= e step down, and I have no idea what the x1 is.
What would {ko'a jungau ko'e ko'i ko'o ko'u} be in Engl= ish?

x1 informs x2 of fact x3 about subjec= t x4 [x5 seems spurious here, as the epistemology is covered by the fact of= x1's informing x2]. When you are the agentive cause of someone knowing= something, you have informed him/her.

mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan

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