From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhDz0JHfBBoEfCCZuQ@googlegroups.com Fri May 07 12:22:47 2010 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1OAT8F-0001EH-Df; Fri, 07 May 2010 12:22:47 -0700 Received: by wwi17 with SMTP id 17sf570391wwi.16 for ; Fri, 07 May 2010 12:22:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=q+7bf8DaEc95RdYjkuGj4SLD56lHr5H1orKH3OLQYn4=; b=a9hv2B4TBGN/uLDckQFkXR+E48obroWo0jbH2Tup0Hz9CBvaHCTHK+ZbMSU1kr2GXZ tNTdST6+k7tiFhiUfA6QGPL0WZHhETBm5b8igJ040viZaxOx/pPUFO5LUueeVnPRyNev fnU7SZT+L+YDOD4FYhZT9gFAKyt1h/KyAo5Zg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=zF5URi1jFnw11P5dlFRLITPf6LAqLZaA63Y/a5OlDCXh3XPgOHq8kCRCctGWeRJIl0 WpEqncKXLidgeMffT8XhT1zUc4jGjfXbwsR1r4x7ww6jbqXRYynvfM9OQV5AhSQLoP7M A/87d71qHDBtOYqtRHyHPiHeQyufLlanCvB3s= Received: by 10.223.65.7 with SMTP id g7mr60587fai.33.1273260147504; Fri, 07 May 2010 12:22:27 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.198.222 with SMTP id v72ls3176024wen.3.p; Fri, 07 May 2010 12:22:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.172.144 with SMTP id t16mr29717wel.25.1273260146279; Fri, 07 May 2010 12:22:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.172.144 with SMTP id t16mr29715wel.25.1273260146240; Fri, 07 May 2010 12:22:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f43.google.com (mail-ww0-f43.google.com [74.125.82.43]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id p18si2950984wbc.4.2010.05.07.12.22.25; Fri, 07 May 2010 12:22:25 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.43 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.43; Received: by mail-ww0-f43.google.com with SMTP id 18so1023289wwi.30 for ; Fri, 07 May 2010 12:22:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.86.16 with SMTP id v16mr330083wee.169.1273260145076; Fri, 07 May 2010 12:22:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.51.7 with HTTP; Fri, 7 May 2010 12:22:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201005062238.58059.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 13:22:25 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] The North Wind and the Sun From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.43 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6d588b9a76bb5048605faf7 --0016e6d588b9a76bb5048605faf7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 1:06 PM, komfo,amonan wrote: > On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 2:59 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > >> 2010/5/7 Jorge Llamb=EDas >> >>> On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 2:58 PM, Jonathan Jones >>> wrote: >>> > 2010/5/7 Jorge Llamb=EDas >>> >> >>> >> On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 1:46 PM, Jonathan Jones >>> wrote: >>> >> > May I suggest a lujvo involving gasnu? >>> >> > gasnu gau "do" "x1 [person/agent] is an agentive cause of event x2= ; >>> *x1 >>> >> > does/brings about x2*" >>> >> > >>> >> > For example: >>> >> > gauju'o - g1=3Dd1 knows how to bring about g2=3Dd2 >>> >> >>> >> You could do that, but it would be a non-compositional lujvo. You >>> >> cannot explain the meaning of that "gauju'o" in terms of "djuno", yo= u >>> >> have to rely on the English gloss. It does not mean "ko'a djuno lo >>> >> du'u ko'a gasnu ko'e" or anything like that. >>> >> >>> > I wouldn't be trying to explain gauju'o in terms of djuno. I would >>> explain >>> > it in terms of gasnu. >>> >>> (BTW, it should be "gaurju'o") >>> >>> OK, what would the explanation be (in Lojban)? And why would you use >>> "djuno" as part of the lujvo if it plays no role in explaining the >>> meaning of the lujvo? >>> >> >> Attempting this, I find I can only do this using gasnu, djuno, and tadji= , >> using djuno as the main bridi: {ko'a djuno lodu'u tadji be lonu ko'e se >> gasnu} >> >> Also, I realized that, once again, I did the lujvo backwards. I should'v= e >> said {jungau}. Interestingly, jbofi'e returns this for {jungau}: >> "[1(2*[jungau1 (inform) :] **zo'e* *unspecif it*)2 *[is, does]* =AB3*jun= gau >> * *inform*=BB3 (4*[jungau2 (know-er(s)) :] **zo'e* *unspecif it*)4 (5*[j= ungau3 >> (fact(s) known) :] **zo'e* *unspecif it*)5 (6*[jungau4 (known subject(s)= ) >> :] **zo'e* *unspecif it*)6 (7*[jungau5 (epistemology for knowing(s)) :] = * >> *zo'e* *unspecif it*)7]1" >> Which doesn't really make any sense to me. x2-x5 just {djuno}'s place >> structure moved one step down, and I have no idea what the x1 is. >> What would {ko'a jungau ko'e ko'i ko'o ko'u} be in English? >> > > x1 informs x2 of fact x3 about subject x4 [x5 seems spurious here, as the > epistemology is covered by the fact of x1's informing x2]. When you are t= he > agentive cause of someone knowing something, you have informed him/her. > > Okay, I get it now. ko'a is the cause of ko'e knowing ko'i about ko'o. I was getting confused because I was thinking that j2=3Dd1=3Dg1. > > mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0016e6d588b9a76bb5048605faf7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 1:06 PM, komfo,amonan <komfoamonan@gma= il.com> wrote:
On Fri, May 7,= 2010 at 2:59 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:<= br>
2010/5/7 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@g= mail.com>
On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 2:58 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2010/5/7 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
>>
>> On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 1:46 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote: >> > May I suggest a lujvo involving gasnu?
>> > gasnu gau "do" "x1 [person/agent] is an agenti= ve cause of event x2; *x1
>> > does/brings about x2*"
>> >
>> > For example:
>> > gauju'o - g1=3Dd1 knows how to bring about g2=3Dd2
>>
>> You could do that, but it would be a non-compositional lujvo. You<= br> >> cannot explain the meaning of that "gauju'o" in term= s of "djuno", you
>> have to rely on the English gloss. It does not mean "ko'a= djuno lo
>> du'u ko'a gasnu ko'e" or anything like that.
>>
> I wouldn't be trying to explain gauju'o in terms of djuno. I w= ould explain
> it in terms of gasnu.

(BTW, it should be "gaurju'o")

OK, what would the explanation be (in Lojban)? And why would you use
"djuno" as part of the lujvo if it plays no role in explaining th= e
meaning of the lujvo?

Attempting this, I fin= d I can only do this using gasnu, djuno, and tadji, using djuno as the main= bridi: {ko'a djuno lodu'u tadji be lonu ko'e se gasnu}

Also, I realized that, once again, I did the lujvo backwards. I should&= #39;ve said {jungau}. Interestingly, jbofi'e returns this for {jungau}:=
"[1(2[jungau1 (inform) :] zo'e unspecif it)2 [is, does] =AB3jungau inform=BB3 (4[jungau2 (know-er(s)) :] zo'e unspecif it)4 (5[jungau3 (fact(s)=20 known) :] zo'e unspecif it)5 (6[jungau4 (known=20 subject(s)) :] zo'e unspecif it)6 (7[jungau5 (epistemology=20 for knowing(s)) :] zo'e unspecif it)7]1"
Which doesn't rea= lly make any sense to me. x2-x5 just {djuno}'s place structure moved on= e step down, and I have no idea what the x1 is.
What would {ko'a jungau ko'e ko'i ko'o ko'u} be in Engl= ish?

x1 informs x2 of fact x3 = about subject x4 [x5 seems spurious here, as the epistemology is covered by= the fact of x1's informing x2]. When you are the agentive cause of som= eone knowing something, you have informed him/her.

Okay, I get it now. ko'a is the= cause of ko'e knowing ko'i about ko'o. I was getting confused = because I was thinking that j2=3Dd1=3Dg1.

mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu
=

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
--0016e6d588b9a76bb5048605faf7--