From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRCj55LfBBoEzqI9FQ@googlegroups.com Fri May 07 17:43:36 2010 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1OAY8g-0005tH-Gq; Fri, 07 May 2010 17:43:36 -0700 Received: by vws20 with SMTP id 20sf625707vws.16 for ; Fri, 07 May 2010 17:43:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Y/uDiZ1m1NoQczLLt+VCROAdasDSGG4BvBDLlhlVSGA=; b=VSLjeu8ZDKeMgYVM/Bqb3M4XBJ9u98cYY7WXwjcUsWiGbioRcA0ClaO/BgN0J209w1 BoiKtHCBksqkh6EaXW5UwEl7pkw9J0dobocWLGg9wxA7HGO5Zlpotk1b+TtAR5Yw1tgn HEaLnaNvChjv8dkeoF6jFgEAMFx/CBUeP5e/E= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Xf7fDaa4MCzl9LWuDHhzGdzCIRakvay/EIqF17+czim4bwdTCoe5PzFXeAclM5O8oQ U+/lohVKEplHJQ0SgG7V1OnuRzBULfp7F+pGT9ho3MgJL3/rUWXUQBjXX63n4/KDnzPf LKS9y5S3nvdUdhmg4sAAYTBIp+RmlMW/PkbiI= Received: by 10.220.107.40 with SMTP id z40mr41667vco.11.1273279395599; Fri, 07 May 2010 17:43:15 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.47.17 with SMTP id l17ls9268694vcf.5.p; Fri, 07 May 2010 17:43:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.164.199 with SMTP id f7mr216637vcy.11.1273279394343; Fri, 07 May 2010 17:43:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.164.199 with SMTP id f7mr216635vcy.11.1273279394293; Fri, 07 May 2010 17:43:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f195.google.com (mail-qy0-f195.google.com [209.85.221.195]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id a29si280550vcp.4.2010.05.07.17.43.13; Fri, 07 May 2010 17:43:13 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.195 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.221.195; Received: by mail-qy0-f195.google.com with SMTP id 33so2790993qyk.24 for ; Fri, 07 May 2010 17:43:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.187.147 with SMTP id cw19mr594601qcb.45.1273279392918; Fri, 07 May 2010 17:43:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.82.11 with HTTP; Fri, 7 May 2010 17:43:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201005062238.58059.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 21:43:12 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] The North Wind and the Sun From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.195 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2010/5/7 Jorge Llamb=EDas : > On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 11:38 PM, Pierre Abbat wrote: >> I'm not sure how to say "persuade"; there's a translation in >> jbovlaste, but it's for "persuade that something is true", not "persuade= to >> do something". > > Similarly: > > ????: know how to do something > ????: find out how to do something > ????: learn to do something > ????: teach to do something ????: remember how to do something > ????: remember to do something > ????: decide to do something In fact, not all of these follow the same pattern. We have two classes, the "knowledge class" and the "intention class". The knowledge class includes djuno, facki, cilre, ctuca, morji... (know, come to know, acquire knowledge of, impart knowledge of, bring back knowledge of, etc.) The "how to" version of the knowledge class can be obtained with "lo du'u ta'i makau ...", although it is not really clear that an intellectual knowledge about how something is done is equivalent knowing how to do something in a more experiential sense (does a child who knows how to walk, know what the method for walking is, in a djuno sense?) xu lo verba cu djuno lo du'u ri cadzu ta'i ma kau "Does a child know how they walk?" "Does a child know how to walk?" Are those two really the same questions? The intention class includes: "intend", jdice, morji, "persuade"... This class is even more complicated, since we don't even have a good gismu for the basic concept "x1 intends to do x2". "ckixlu" is a nice lujvo for "persuade", but it doesn't give us a general solution. "decide to do" can be "come to intend to do", "remember to do" can be "bring back the intention to do", "persuade to do" can be "make someone intend to do", and so on, but we don't have "x1 intends to do x2" to begin with. The best two candidates are "zukte" and "platu", but "zukte" relegates the intention to x3 and has an x2 that doesn't really belong, and "platu" has a rather hard to figure out place structure. So, how do we say: x1 intends to do x2 x1 decides to do x2 x1 remembers to do x2 x1 forgets to do x2 Anyone wants to run the gismu making algorithm to see what comes out for "intend"? mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. 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