From lojban+bncCOzcnrWBFBDw5pTfBBoE7A7Dkg@googlegroups.com Sat May 08 02:48:52 2010 Received: from mail-yx0-f168.google.com ([209.85.210.168]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1OAgeN-0002Fb-Ao; Sat, 08 May 2010 02:48:52 -0700 Received: by yxe40 with SMTP id 40sf1229964yxe.28 for ; Sat, 08 May 2010 02:48:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:sender :received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=XUouCXTTNoFf19LpGW5/gKRJ14w2k8mtGMhMzY8Gme8=; b=Q+9RZ7QDQ04dtgj/6stOaN51Ok/SLz7bb8ZNUqx0+pc0qYIDkdV03N6DZ9PJf6Wvym ypK5wGBGqpS9oQiLThyRnfy0y519pbsCFKFvpD6CGvB8+Z8wzY4mLfU/7HOOhL4YzkMN UX8bIfG/AeZjAGjMPa+V58ckKdCsHqN7Nl0vc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; b=7AdsthY4rEgDj4cJLsnqRc5jhcHdeeSqL7YjMie6I+Ho+fRvEv+aa5u6HymFRmRyDE x5Xp8wHplP6BI1RSIttojbR3+ssCxHQMCJEtsAXBZLx+e28Ma9Qsi/v62zFwwF9zjW+r 0QBMoyGX7ZzhJiKDiRR+snhZ/H9WN2kSR7wWw= Received: by 10.150.87.40 with SMTP id k40mr278602ybb.45.1273312112367; Sat, 08 May 2010 02:48:32 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.150.242.38 with SMTP id p38ls8171195ybh.6.p; Sat, 08 May 2010 02:48:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.66.20 with SMTP id o20mr2986516yba.27.1273312110706; Sat, 08 May 2010 02:48:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.66.20 with SMTP id o20mr2986514yba.27.1273312110652; Sat, 08 May 2010 02:48:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f182.google.com (mail-qy0-f182.google.com [209.85.221.182]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 18si264320gxk.3.2010.05.08.02.48.29; Sat, 08 May 2010 02:48:29 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of pascal.akihiko@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.182 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.221.182; Received: by qyk12 with SMTP id 12so2591704qyk.26 for ; Sat, 08 May 2010 02:48:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.107.26 with SMTP id z26mr751734qao.123.1273312109411; Sat, 08 May 2010 02:48:29 -0700 (PDT) Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.1.222 with HTTP; Sat, 8 May 2010 02:48:29 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201005062238.58059.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 10:48:29 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] The North Wind and the Sun From: tijlan To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of pascal.akihiko@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.182 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=pascal.akihiko@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: pascal.akihiko@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00c09f899338f83e000486121336 --00c09f899338f83e000486121336 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2010/5/8 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas > The "how to" version of the knowledge class can be obtained with "lo > du'u ta'i makau ...", although it is not really clear that an > intellectual knowledge about how something is done is equivalent > knowing how to do something in a more experiential sense (does a child > who knows how to walk, know what the method for walking is, in a djuno > sense?) > > xu lo verba cu djuno lo du'u ri cadzu ta'i ma kau > "Does a child know how they walk?" > "Does a child know how to walk?" > > Are those two really the same questions? > It slightly feels to be the difference between {djuno} and {jijnu}. In {lo verba cu jijnu lo du'u/zu'o ri cadzu ta'i ma kau}, the child may not be aware of the factuality or the logical makeup of the x2 but can act on the subconscious neurological flows activated by that information of the x2 stored somewhere in the brain. > The intention class includes: "intend", jdice, morji, "persuade"... > This class is even more complicated, since we don't even have a good > gismu for the basic concept "x1 intends to do x2". "ckixlu" is a nice > lujvo for "persuade", but it doesn't give us a general solution. > > "decide to do" can be "come to intend to do", "remember to do" can be > "bring back the intention to do", "persuade to do" can be "make > someone intend to do", and so on, but we don't have "x1 intends to do > x2" to begin with. The best two candidates are "zukte" and "platu", > but "zukte" relegates the intention to x3 and has an x2 that doesn't > really belong, and "platu" has a rather hard to figure out place > structure. > Then why not create a new place structure out of these two? zu'epla p1=3Dz1 intends p2=3Dz3 > Anyone wants to run the gismu making algorithm to see what comes out > for "intend"? > From dasuan 0.36 (zho: =E6=89=93=E7=AE=97 | d=C7=8Esuan ) irada 0.21 (hin: =E0=A4=87=E0=A4=B0=E0=A4=BE=E0=A4=A6=E0=A4=BE | ir=C4=81d= =C4=81 ) intend 0.16 (eng: intend) intension 0.11 (spa: intenci=C3=B3n ) namerevatsa 0.09 (rus: =D0=BD=D0=B0=D0=BC=D0=B5=D1=80=D0=B5=D0=B2=D0=B0=D1= =82=D1=8C=D1=81=D1=8F | namerev=C3=A1t=E2=80=99sja ) kasada 0.07 (ara: =D9=82=D8=B5=D8=AF | qaSada ) (The Hindi and the Spanish are nouns because I didn't know and couldn't find its verb form. The Russian is de-palatalized both for simplicity and also in consideration of non-palatalizing slavic speakers with a word of th= e same etymology.) scoreGismu.pl gives drasa 0.434 mu'o mi'e tijlan --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --00c09f899338f83e000486121336 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
2010/5/8 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas &= lt;jjllambias@gmail.com>
The "how to" version of the knowledge class can be obtained with = "lo
du'u ta'i makau ...", although it is not really clear that an<= br> intellectual knowledge about how something is done is equivalent
knowing how to do something in a more experiential sense (does a child
who knows how to walk, know what the method for walking is, in a djuno
sense?)

=C2=A0 xu lo verba cu djuno lo du'u ri cadzu ta'i ma kau
=C2=A0"Does a child know how they walk?"
=C2=A0"Does a child know how to walk?"

Are those two really the same questions?

It slight= ly feels to be the difference between {djuno} and {jijnu}. In {lo verba cu = jijnu lo du'u/zu'o ri cadzu ta'i ma kau}, the child may not be = aware of the factuality or the logical makeup of the x2 but can act on the = subconscious neurological flows activated by that information of the x2 sto= red somewhere in the brain.

=C2=A0
The intention class includes: "intend", jdice, morji, "persu= ade"...
This class is even more complicated, since we don't even have a good gismu for the basic concept "x1 intends to do x2". "ckixlu&q= uot; is a nice
lujvo for "persuade", but it doesn't give us a general soluti= on.

"decide to do" can be "come to intend to do", "rem= ember to do" can be
"bring back the intention to do", "persuade to do" can = be "make
someone intend to do", and so on, but we don't have "x1 inten= ds to do
x2" to begin with. The best two candidates are "zukte" and &= quot;platu",
but "zukte" relegates the intention to x3 and has an x2 that does= n't
really belong, and "platu" has a rather hard to figure out place<= br> structure.

Then why not create a new place structu= re out of these two?

=C2=A0zu'epla
=C2=A0p1=3Dz1 intends p2= =3Dz3

=C2=A0
Anyone wants to run the gismu making algorithm to see what comes out
for "intend"?

From

=C2=A0dasuan 0= .36 (zho: =E6=89=93=E7=AE=97 | d=C7=8Esuan )
=C2=A0irada 0.21 (hin: =E0= =A4=87=E0=A4=B0=E0=A4=BE=E0=A4=A6=E0=A4=BE | ir=C4=81d=C4=81 )
=C2=A0int= end 0.16 (eng: intend)
=C2=A0intension 0.11 (spa: intenci=C3=B3n )
= =C2=A0namerevatsa 0.09 (rus: =D0=BD=D0=B0=D0=BC=D0=B5=D1=80=D0=B5=D0=B2=D0= =B0=D1=82=D1=8C=D1=81=D1=8F | namerev=C3=A1t=E2=80=99sja )
=C2=A0kasada 0.07 (ara: =D9=82=D8=B5=D8=AF | qaSada )

=C2=A0(The Hin= di and the Spanish are nouns because I didn't know and couldn't fin= d its verb form. The Russian is de-palatalized both for simplicity and also= in consideration of non-palatalizing slavic speakers with a word of the sa= me etymology.)

scoreGismu.pl gives

=C2=A0drasa 0.434


mu'o mi'= ;e tijlan

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