From lojban+bncCNuStaWoDxCBlpXfBBoEN9ARmg@googlegroups.com Sat May 08 04:29:28 2010 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1OAiDf-0001aK-UO; Sat, 08 May 2010 04:29:28 -0700 Received: by wwi17 with SMTP id 17sf793222wwi.16 for ; Sat, 08 May 2010 04:29:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:message-id:date :from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=FdpHkBk2C/JX7AM7BnQ5WTjDdmvqu3SC9dzQAKOqKT0=; b=E057hnCyEl6nI/lawgjBsEZFX7mq+VgBMFRuSbz/TKEabDN6gcOqt76MiiSW/NGdWN cvmkmRZ/N/VD0o31l75xLtS/tpNYjDZybNOa2vzqYFmJTmljGhqst19NTRaXj0E/eC77 nu26B8UIEWJnpzZJkXweB79lnt+Gdg5U1NRwU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from:user-agent :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=1c3lP63sGfHzlLZXkWHPeFaEjqXLkgIwLR8AqBse5VWFgL6WNdSbL4jOSGnxc4O1T3 7VsyzlGcnw+jVChvTdfrrFFheMWffnsDdRz1G72wA6GM73Bwr4cTWaoP6GYY6yrLZzqr m2GMX5JbuV9dqbog+Mq78yfZQWlP7k40O+lP0= Received: by 10.223.25.203 with SMTP id a11mr159965fac.1.1273318145189; Sat, 08 May 2010 04:29:05 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.145.167 with SMTP id p39ls3441017wej.0.p; Sat, 08 May 2010 04:29:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.154.1 with SMTP id g1mr77067wek.24.1273318143478; Sat, 08 May 2010 04:29:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.154.1 with SMTP id g1mr77066wek.24.1273318143444; Sat, 08 May 2010 04:29:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f50.google.com (mail-ww0-f50.google.com [74.125.82.50]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id h17si3804767wbh.1.2010.05.08.04.29.02; Sat, 08 May 2010 04:29:02 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.50 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.50; Received: by wwb18 with SMTP id 18so291165wwb.9 for ; Sat, 08 May 2010 04:29:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.153.203 with SMTP id l11mr1282035wbw.11.1273318142204; Sat, 08 May 2010 04:29:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.65] (87-194-76-9.bethere.co.uk [87.194.76.9]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id b2sm23432661wbb.14.2010.05.08.04.29.00 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sat, 08 May 2010 04:29:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4BE54AFC.7080705@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 12:29:00 +0100 From: And Rosta User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] The North Wind and the Sun References: <201005062238.58059.phma@phma.optus.nu> In-Reply-To: X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.50 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=and.rosta@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: and.rosta@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My apologies for having just sent another message that says what Jorge'd al= ready said in this message here, which I'd not noticed. --And. Jorge Llamb=EDas, On 08/05/2010 01:43: > 2010/5/7 Jorge Llamb=EDas : >> On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 11:38 PM, Pierre Abbat wrote= : >>> I'm not sure how to say "persuade"; there's a translation in >>> jbovlaste, but it's for "persuade that something is true", not "persuad= e to >>> do something". >> Similarly: >> >> ????: know how to do something >> ????: find out how to do something >> ????: learn to do something >> ????: teach to do something > ????: remember how to do something >> ????: remember to do something >> ????: decide to do something >=20 > In fact, not all of these follow the same pattern. We have two > classes, the "knowledge class" and the "intention class". >=20 > The knowledge class includes djuno, facki, cilre, ctuca, morji... > (know, come to know, acquire knowledge of, impart knowledge of, bring > back knowledge of, etc.) >=20 > The "how to" version of the knowledge class can be obtained with "lo > du'u ta'i makau ...", although it is not really clear that an > intellectual knowledge about how something is done is equivalent > knowing how to do something in a more experiential sense (does a child > who knows how to walk, know what the method for walking is, in a djuno > sense?) >=20 > xu lo verba cu djuno lo du'u ri cadzu ta'i ma kau > "Does a child know how they walk?" > "Does a child know how to walk?" >=20 > Are those two really the same questions? >=20 > The intention class includes: "intend", jdice, morji, "persuade"... > This class is even more complicated, since we don't even have a good > gismu for the basic concept "x1 intends to do x2". "ckixlu" is a nice > lujvo for "persuade", but it doesn't give us a general solution. >=20 > "decide to do" can be "come to intend to do", "remember to do" can be > "bring back the intention to do", "persuade to do" can be "make > someone intend to do", and so on, but we don't have "x1 intends to do > x2" to begin with. The best two candidates are "zukte" and "platu", > but "zukte" relegates the intention to x3 and has an x2 that doesn't > really belong, and "platu" has a rather hard to figure out place > structure. >=20 > So, how do we say: >=20 > x1 intends to do x2 > x1 decides to do x2 > x1 remembers to do x2 > x1 forgets to do x2 >=20 > Anyone wants to run the gismu making algorithm to see what comes out > for "intend"? >=20 > mu'o mi'e xorxes >=20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.