From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRDRlJffBBoE-zA0Ng@googlegroups.com Sat May 08 13:32:41 2010 Received: from mail-gx0-f198.google.com ([209.85.217.198]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1OAqhL-0007if-0l; Sat, 08 May 2010 13:32:41 -0700 Received: by gxk22 with SMTP id 22sf1852090gxk.4 for ; Sat, 08 May 2010 13:32:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=3KRtqHv9vGptMc6ozpgAavx/aqEkd2Ac669KKc993QU=; b=XC7jH90nid0N0Bw0WL0QJxY27KvfQXNH7Z4EVgz8xd6twfQRlQjzeEkwnBAsCk2tj0 Y4A++uxY1r74M8QjlkyCbAi9QwsIiYs2OAHmr/ZMPErKDfiqdZ8iyhq4T0RmbO+bQPKy rzjN40e6dps7l1U4GnERZdXX0K6UEmdy3SmPY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=oUhL0+CtzH12/uMJ0pF2d/Za2lAIagz3PKCxUD9HVMIBC9DPN7rW7EFR25TPXqjHMN CkgUSmkKOG0/hhgoHrrIYn2naj9IGNjtqoihdZ72Zwmssq0X6zW2/Sg5jZEufyEWMoud /6hJ+5Cl6axXsoB6CQOhf6xbsHJZIdPqDXDgw= Received: by 10.91.182.17 with SMTP id j17mr131930agp.55.1273350737871; Sat, 08 May 2010 13:32:17 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.91.66.23 with SMTP id t23ls6398292agk.6.p; Sat, 08 May 2010 13:32:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.20.28 with SMTP id 28mr3147854agt.7.1273350736856; Sat, 08 May 2010 13:32:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.20.28 with SMTP id 28mr3147851agt.7.1273350736805; Sat, 08 May 2010 13:32:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f193.google.com (mail-qy0-f193.google.com [209.85.221.193]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 24si313729yxe.1.2010.05.08.13.32.15; Sat, 08 May 2010 13:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.193 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.221.193; Received: by qyk31 with SMTP id 31so3852866qyk.25 for ; Sat, 08 May 2010 13:32:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.35.216 with SMTP id q24mr1194186qad.79.1273350735421; Sat, 08 May 2010 13:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.82.11 with HTTP; Sat, 8 May 2010 13:32:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 17:32:15 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Named multiples From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.193 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 5:15 PM, tijlan wrote: > 2010/5/7 Jorge Llamb=EDas >> >> Merge the syntactic classes cmevla and brivla, yes. Brivla would still >> be divided in four morphological classes: gismu/lujvo/fu'ivla/cmevla, >> but there is no need for the last class to have its own separate >> syntax. > > I guess the merging would involve changing the stress rules for cmevla a > little bit. No, the phonological/morphological rules are totally independent of what I'm saying. All the phonological rules accomplish is break down a string of phonemes into a string of words. Once we have those words identified, how they are then structured to form a text is independent of the previous step. > Firstly, no stress for monosyllabic cmevla, especially when used > as a selbri. Otherwise the likes of {ko'a JAN je prenu} would be a proble= m. Not really. The cmevla ".jan." will be identified as a cmevla whether it is stressed or not. Any string of phonemes without an intervening pause that ends in consonant plus pause is a cmevla. Stress is irrelevant. If you are thinking that "JAN je" could be identified as a gismu, it can't because the cmevla must end with a pause. Just as in "la JAN ji la JEN cu prenu", which can't be understood as "la janji la jencu prenu". > Secondly, the stress position would have to be fixed in some way. Imagine= a > nation whose name could be lojbanized as {nantanmin} with the original > stress on the first {nan}. {ti NANtanmin cidja}, intended to mean "this i= s > Nantanmin-type-of food", could possibly be mistaken for {ti NANtan mincid= ja} Not possible, because "nantan mincidja" requires a pause after "nantan" and no pause after "min", while "nantanmin cidja" requires no pause between "nantan" and "min", and a pause after "min". In fact "la NANtanmin cidja" is currently grammatical and cannot be mistaken as "la NANtan mincidja". > or even {tiNAN tanmincidja}. Doing away with the stress wouldn't solve th= is. > But would {nantanMIN} or {nanTANmin}? You are forgetting that cmevla must always end with a pause after the final consonant. That's their identifying trait. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.