From lojban+bncCLi-v_X3FRDv_5vgBBoEzNoLNA@googlegroups.com Wed Jun 02 18:07:07 2010 Received: from mail-pz0-f138.google.com ([209.85.222.138]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1OJyti-0008Bt-17; Wed, 02 Jun 2010 18:07:06 -0700 Received: by pzk2 with SMTP id 2sf1598553pzk.24 for ; Wed, 02 Jun 2010 18:06:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received:received-spf:received:received:date:from:to :subject:message-id:mail-followup-to:references:mime-version :in-reply-to:organization:user-agent :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-disposition; bh=U7g3Jy0mQPXbUyftGLI2+Wl1xJkqKMoRMfi83yTiCpg=; b=5ZB8IKTaQZgX+tADOOtEXSISESOye63B0RnFeWSEqq4H1HddlOUxDHIU5A4uA9HITK UJ3mI8tjO6hpwDZhXH4Jpy0L6rdw+e61k6+e9serys9GqdbMgp1bhOsCJlvAW2ypj/JM Sc2BWwdS+9jL7Re38n9VGrf4SPWH1olxIMcIg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id :mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:in-reply-to:organization :user-agent:x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-disposition; b=3fS9zdixFsWazR68cfjOSZ6ivfp5Tf79a1yVGBzqDCj9XHiICUr4iGFtLGDDWAR0Au ZFBh9OI4WKDlQRlqVHKEMoCmOoOEY3t79WiNehOEDzKtMX0DKLpLoN4W1O5EBsfepo0D YQ65kd1auN/rbvt4lc7fl+XJ0Sxj1csqMlrzw= Received: by 10.141.22.14 with SMTP id z14mr876520rvi.20.1275527151011; Wed, 02 Jun 2010 18:05:51 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.141.187.12 with SMTP id o12ls4560685rvp.0.p; Wed, 02 Jun 2010 18:05:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.131.19 with SMTP id i19mr3005375rvn.23.1275527149332; Wed, 02 Jun 2010 18:05:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.4.8 with SMTP id g8mr3000373rvi.35.1275526777787; Wed, 02 Jun 2010 17:59:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.4.8 with SMTP id g8mr3000372rvi.35.1275526777756; Wed, 02 Jun 2010 17:59:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sdf.lonestar.org (mx.freeshell.org [192.94.73.19]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id b1si719270rvn.6.2010.06.02.17.59.37; Wed, 02 Jun 2010 17:59:37 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 192.94.73.19 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of jwodder@sdf.lonestar.org) client-ip=192.94.73.19; Received: from sdf.lonestar.org (IDENT:jwodder@sverige.freeshell.org [192.94.73.4]) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.14.4/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o530xboI020944 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 2010 00:59:37 GMT Received: (from jwodder@localhost) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.14.3/8.12.8/Submit) id o530xb5C027406 for lojban@googlegroups.com; Thu, 3 Jun 2010 00:59:37 GMT Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 00:59:37 +0000 From: Minimiscience To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Named multiples Message-ID: <20100603005936.GA23621@sdf.lonestar.org> Mail-Followup-To: lojban@googlegroups.com References: <676f1fae-2f5a-4609-8727-49c9083a8715@h20g2000prn.googlegroups.com> <02364613-a7cb-4428-8916-bcad33923e03@40g2000pry.googlegroups.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <02364613-a7cb-4428-8916-bcad33923e03@40g2000pry.googlegroups.com> Organization: SDF Public Access UNIX System User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 192.94.73.19 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of jwodder@sdf.lonestar.org) smtp.mail=jwodder@sdf.lonestar.org X-Original-Sender: minimiscience@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline de'i li 02 pi'e 06 pi'e 2010 la'o fy. Lindar .fy. cusku zoi skamyxatra. > I really, truly, honestly believe that your idea is a bad one. > That's not regular grammar. It -is- an exception. It is ambiguous in > meaning. A computer could not parse it. .skamyxatra Although it doesn't really affect your main point, I feel like I should point out that interpretation of vocatives is entirely *semantic*, not syntactic/grammatical. It *is* regular grammar; it's the same grammar as before, except that the rules for and + have now been merged. A computer could still parse vocatives, and the resulting syntax tree would be the same. The {lo}/{le}/{la} ambiguity only becomes apparent if a computer or human attempts to assign a *meaning* to a vocative, which is at least one level of abstraction higher than the grammar. Moreover, Lojban already contains known (and unavoidable) semantic ambiguities, such as {tanru} (which are ambiguous almost by definition), determining whether an instance of "{lo broda}" under xorlo truly {broda}s, and, say, referring to "{la .djan.}" in a bathroom full of male native Anglophones accompanied by ladies of negotiable affection (I apologize for the mental image). The question (well, *a* question) is whether this new potential ambiguity of vocatives does not exceed these other uncertainties. mu'omi'e .kamymecraijun. -- jicmu traji zifre fa loi remna lonu senpi -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.