From lojban+bncCMvjp-TQBRC9oe_gBBoEpUp_zA@googlegroups.com Fri Jun 18 13:02:52 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f158.google.com ([209.85.211.158]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OPhld-0006uW-V0; Fri, 18 Jun 2010 13:02:50 -0700 Received: by ywh30 with SMTP id 30sf2606833ywh.25 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 2010 13:02:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:mime-version:received:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=KIyYawTOZCixxwIG6ZR3qjvQeBZHQ3sqapvR+afFXyY=; b=5YoQ7/PyA9csjdqwKuOi/G4vAwG+V1tY6Yu7Pljp3RPdocTF73HoojAsHBpFeZtu8k 2u7H4trDVIrmZ8FDZotiM73r4tn/VYYvkykhSCDcypnY0giLn3gFurd77vfHz3hsWFbJ wW4muYDR5t/+2MxTCKmt5O0xnnYPJrOPHWpqI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject :to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=otfTzohMnlnrGaqhT1dBxbc8jSSj5PfzcybDJ5PSv0shrsMrNkn2hmcMjIxnaB3R3s yQ1jhbGalGcZWPzsYm+4YthyoQ1rxvD/eTqkiEoxXJU7lgdK+5XiwFnqgTf2KWy7bCy6 Asq0Ubz+uJ2iDjszzkvO+f66EoY7HPmKxTOOc= Received: by 10.101.175.14 with SMTP id c14mr875809anp.34.1276891325538; Fri, 18 Jun 2010 13:02:05 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.148.2 with SMTP id a2ls271912ano.1.p; Fri, 18 Jun 2010 13:02:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.53.13 with SMTP id b13mr3595633ana.24.1276891324774; Fri, 18 Jun 2010 13:02:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.53.13 with SMTP id b13mr3595632ana.24.1276891324728; Fri, 18 Jun 2010 13:02:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gy0-f174.google.com (mail-gy0-f174.google.com [209.85.160.174]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id z17si7474041ank.5.2010.06.18.13.02.03; Fri, 18 Jun 2010 13:02:03 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of dbrockman@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.174 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.174; Received: by mail-gy0-f174.google.com with SMTP id 5so1126340gye.19 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 2010 13:02:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.200.21 with SMTP id c21mr1327022anq.195.1276891323576; Fri, 18 Jun 2010 13:02:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.101.58.20 with HTTP; Fri, 18 Jun 2010 13:01:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Daniel Brockman Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 22:01:43 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: [lojban] Metalinguistic sumti-to-selbri operator To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: dbrockman@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of dbrockman@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.174 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=dbrockman@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I think we should have a generic operator for converting a sumti referring to a selbri into a selbri. I propose calling it {me'ei}. It'd be part of ME. For example, i do ko'a me'ei lo melbi You have a beautiful relation to ko'a. i pe'i la xalbo na me'ei lo smuni be lo cmene be vo'a I don't think xalbo lives up to his name. This plugs a language hole that may be somewhat theoretical but in my opinion is pretty fundamental. It also provides a way to define things like {me'oi}: {me'oi foo} = {me'ei lo smuni be zo'oi foo} And if you don't like {bu'a}, which is a bit awkward to quantify, depending on your standard for awkwardness, you can just use {me'ei da}. All in all, it's a powerful tool for talking about and manipulating predicates. For example, one could define a brivla like this: {kibro} = {me'ei lo smuni be zo kibro bei la jbovlaste} Now, maybe that's not how you interpret it, but at least now you can talk about it in a precise manner. Thoughts? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.