From lojban+bncCNTj3fy9AhDjhoziBBoEwE9WWQ@googlegroups.com Sun Jul 18 06:36:56 2010 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OaU30-0003us-9B; Sun, 18 Jul 2010 06:36:56 -0700 Received: by gxk22 with SMTP id 22sf7656304gxk.16 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2010 06:36:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received :received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=RGRbniOOgXKO0QDx4z3CCapeoZRCyNcndQwINjPyUrE=; b=Utfj9LWhUondvRYwByI+DUPOBptmDNQN11uq9hyp9Id948Z6pE/4tvuWoUk6OHbWia pLrhrR+YpAKa+hM2Q2g0VrwnC++PpUoytjsbw7J8njFY0nfodTXmudha/I1JHagE/Dic FqYzqp9fidGesDEJN8P8QD3M9/lPJV/FP6clA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=W34sd5Ko8ID6sQcU982boKOXDXCaveLAOGzw8y8yFgfA3+zsH4DpipATHrP8qSQRZi JPGKjEJncGROqiKFKy2vfogcgDlSvCISfXaoTRNxYYfdPflAllXFzuY+eJUDgSx2jDzt oIyB9QbEky94G3sbzGgUiAta84Fh4UKLxW6lQ= Received: by 10.90.81.13 with SMTP id e13mr735913agb.22.1279460195300; Sun, 18 Jul 2010 06:36:35 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.150.17.13 with SMTP id 13ls3470104ybq.3.p; Sun, 18 Jul 2010 06:36:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.181.3 with SMTP id d3mr2556024ybf.2.1279460194570; Sun, 18 Jul 2010 06:36:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.59.215 with SMTP id m23mr424697qah.29.1279436937927; Sun, 18 Jul 2010 00:08:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.59.215 with SMTP id m23mr424696qah.29.1279436937872; Sun, 18 Jul 2010 00:08:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f53.google.com (mail-vw0-f53.google.com [209.85.212.53]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id w21si2580177qcr.0.2010.07.18.00.08.56; Sun, 18 Jul 2010 00:08:56 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of alexjean9@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.53 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.53; Received: by mail-vw0-f53.google.com with SMTP id 15so4629432vws.12 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2010 00:08:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.76.74 with SMTP id b10mr2034611vck.78.1279436936394; Sun, 18 Jul 2010 00:08:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.186.133 with HTTP; Sun, 18 Jul 2010 00:08:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <201007172254.59861.phma@phma.optus.nu> References: <3c4ace6b-a18e-4306-a2b1-8cef523e20f3@u36g2000prg.googlegroups.com> <201007172044.23358.phma@phma.optus.nu> <201007172254.59861.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 00:08:56 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Lojban Kids Show From: Alex Moore To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: alexjean9@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of alexjean9@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.53 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=alexjean9@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e64769e41b3966048ba420d2 --0016e64769e41b3966048ba420d2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 (This got a lot longer than I intended, sorry. I just wanted to throw in stuff as brain food for traditions or habits in Lojgugde) I'm not a part of your project (but I think it's amazing, and how in-depth you're making this is really cool). I thought I might add some ideas on the "culture" subject. I learned some tid-bits of French culture (some of this applies to most other European countries) * The French build very close (not a lot of casual friendships) friendships which last a lifetime. We may keep in contact with a few of our high school or college mates, but they stay in close relation with most/all of their friends (probably partly due to have their entire country the size of Texas) * The European "personal bubble" is much smaller than our American one. Europeans stand very close to each other when talking (even at the store or fast-food place), which bothers most Americans who aren't used to it. * (the French are more lax about this with tourists because they're used to it), before engaging anyone in conversation (sales clerk, pastry shop owner) you greet this person with "Bonjour" (ex: you don't say "excuse me sir do you know what time it is?", you say "Hello sir (then wait for him to say hello back), do you know what time it is?"). You also don't greet random people on the street with "Hi", like Americans sometimes will. * When children make friends the friends come to their house and are introduced to the parents (ex: "hi mom this my friend John, we're gonna go up to my room and play video games" doesn't normally happen), same goes for girl and boyfriends. * The French school system will track kids (starting in middle school based on abilities and high school based on abilities and what job the kid wants in the future) if a student does poorly and falls out of their track you can't get them back in (so parents take schoolwork very seriously), and the teachers change classes, not kids. So the kids are tracked exactly and are with kids doing things similar to what they plan to do. Also the French have college paid for (like normal school), but you don't go back to college or change majors, you're lock into what you're doing. Not saying this sort of stuff should be incorporated, mostly I'm throwing this out to get ideas of what sort of day to day culture actions could be added from existing cultures or made-up to make Lojgugde have it's own identity. What is the family dynamic (stay-at-home mom's common? 50 50 split stay at home moms and dads? is a stay-at-home rare?) Do children often work in family businesses? How does the school system work? (in England the public school system isn't great, but private (/boarding schools) are more common. Do kids start at age 5? 3? 10? Are they tracked (like the French school system)? Do they take one course at a time (like one class all day for 4 weeks and then move onto another class)? Do the kids have to take a traditional four courses, or do they study what interests them? What is the etiquette for greeting someone, "coi *name*", or "coi pendo". Do you say "coi mamta" or is the mother's name used?** Because they live in a space station do they have number of children laws? Or do they just plan to build more "tubes" as population increases? Do their names change over time? (Native American style where they earn their names for their deeds/what they do), do they have a casual name and a close personal name? Do they even have middle or last names? Since we name kids stuff like Honor or Peace could a child be named "panpis" or are their names Lojbanizations of names from various Earth cultures? Since the space station only seems to have about 200,000 residents (and maybe less at some point) are "families" famose or infamous in social satus within a local sense ( 1-5k radius for the suburb areas?) like small towns? I've just been reading stuff on the mailing list, so I'm sorry if I said anything that has already been talked about, I was just thinking about the culture stuff which would be almost immediately encountered by the second or third episode/when "Alpha" meets "Beta's" family. Theirs other stuff too like unions and how leadership/decisions are made, but I tried to stick with stuff "Alpha" would be more likely to encounter soon. On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 7:54 PM, Pierre Abbat wrote: > On Saturday 17 July 2010 21:24:55 CosmicRay wrote: > > How many people would be needed to safely "seed" that number of > descendants > > without the associated problems that a genetic bottleneck can produce? > How > > long, assuming that the population wasn't added to by additional > colonisers > > from Earth (or the net difference between joiners and leavers is zero), > for > > the colony to naturally attain that number? > > > > Essentially I'm wondering if the station was there right now with that > > number of people, when was it founded and with how many people? > > I checked [[Minimum viable population]]. There is no MVP given for humans, > but > the smallest figure is 500 (except for the Laysan Duck which had an > effective > population size of 7 once). To avoid founder effects, they should be from > all > over the world. To grow from 500 to 200k at the maximum worldwide growth > rate > of 2.2% would take 275 years. > > Pierre > -- > li ze te'a ci vu'u ci bi'e te'a mu du > li ci su'i ze te'a mu bi'e vu'u ci > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0016e64769e41b3966048ba420d2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable (This got a lot longer than I intended, sorry. I just wanted to throw in=20 stuff as brain food for traditions or habits in Lojgugde)=

I'm not a part of your project (but I think it's amazing, and h= ow in-depth you're making this is really cool).

I thought I migh= t add some ideas on the "culture" subject.

I learned some = tid-bits of French culture (some of this applies to most other European cou= ntries)
* The French build very close (not a lot of casual friendships) friendships= which last a lifetime.=A0 We may keep in contact with a few of our high sc= hool or college mates, but they stay in close relation with most/all of the= ir friends (probably partly due to have their entire country the size of Te= xas)
* The European "personal bubble" is much smaller than our America= n one.=A0 Europeans stand very close to each other when talking (even at th= e store or fast-food place), which bothers most Americans who aren't us= ed to it.
* (the French are more lax about this with tourists because they're use= d to it), before engaging anyone in conversation (sales clerk, pastry shop = owner) you greet this person with "Bonjour" (ex: you don't sa= y "excuse me sir do you know what time it is?", you say "Hel= lo sir (then wait for him to say hello back), do you know what time it is?&= quot;).=A0 You also don't greet random people on the street with "= Hi", like Americans sometimes will.
* When children make friends the friends come to their house and are introd= uced to the parents (ex: "hi mom this my friend John, we're gonna = go up to my room and play video games" doesn't normally happen), s= ame goes for girl and boyfriends.
* The French school system will track kids (starting in middle school based= on abilities and high school based on abilities and what job the kid wants= in the future) if a student does poorly and falls out of their track you c= an't get them back in (so parents take schoolwork very seriously), and = the teachers change classes, not kids.=A0 So the kids are tracked exactly a= nd are with kids doing things similar to what they plan to do.=A0 Also the = French have college paid for (like normal school), but you don't go bac= k to college or change majors, you're lock into what you're doing.<= br>
Not saying this sort of stuff should be incorporated, mostly I'm th= rowing this out to get ideas of what sort of day to day culture actions cou= ld be added from existing cultures or made-up to make Lojgugde have it's own identity.

What is the family dynamic (stay-at-home mom's common? 50 50 split = stay at home moms and dads? is a stay-at-home rare?)
Do children often w= ork in family businesses?
How does the school system work? (in England t= he public school system isn't great, but private (/boarding schools) ar= e more common.=A0 Do kids start at age 5? 3? 10?=A0 Are they tracked (like = the French school system)?
Do they take one course at a time (like one class all day for 4 weeks and t= hen move onto another class)?=A0 Do the kids have to take a traditional fou= r courses, or do they study what interests them?
What is the etiquette f= or greeting someone, "coi *name*", or "coi pendo".=A0 D= o you say "coi mamta" or is the mother's name used?<= link rel=3D"File-List" href=3D"file:///C:%5CUsers%5CSandy%5CAppData%5CLocal= %5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml">
Because they live in a space station do they h= ave number of children laws? Or do they just plan to build more "tubes= " as population increases?
Do their names change over time? (Native American style where they earn the= ir names for their deeds/what they do), do they have a casual name and a cl= ose personal name? Do they even have middle or last names? Since we name ki= ds stuff like Honor or Peace could a child be named "panpis" or a= re their names Lojbanizations of names from various Earth cultures?
Since the space station only seems to have about 200,000 residents (and may= be less at some point) are "families" famose or infamous in socia= l satus within a local sense ( 1-5k radius for the suburb areas?) like smal= l towns?

I've just been reading stuff on the mailing list, so I'm sorry = if I said anything that has already been talked about, I was just thinking = about the culture stuff which would be almost immediately encountered by th= e second or third episode/when "Alpha" meets "Beta's&quo= t; family.

Theirs other stuff too like unions and how leadership/decisions are mad= e, but I tried to stick with stuff "Alpha" would be more likely t= o encounter soon.

On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at= 7:54 PM, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
On Saturday 17 July 2010 21:24:55 CosmicRay wrote:
> How many people would be needed to safely "seed" that number= of descendants
> without the associated problems that a genetic bottleneck can produce?= =A0How
> long, assuming that the population wasn't added to by additional c= olonisers
> from Earth (or the net difference between joiners and leavers is zero)= , for
> the colony to naturally attain that number?
>
> Essentially I'm wondering if the station was there right now with = that
> number of people, when was it founded and with how many people?

I checked [[Minimum viable population]]. There is no MVP given for hu= mans, but
the smallest figure is 500 (except for the Laysan Duck which had an effecti= ve
population size of 7 once). To avoid founder effects, they should be from a= ll
over the world. To grow from 500 to 200k at the maximum worldwide growth ra= te
of 2.2% would take 275 years.

Pierre
--
li ze te'a ci vu'u ci bi'e te'a mu du
li ci su'i ze te'a mu bi'e vu'u ci

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