From lojban+bncCKi12tLPFBC7np3iBBoEslVmTg@googlegroups.com Wed Jul 21 12:49:36 2010 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1ObfIK-0002j7-89; Wed, 21 Jul 2010 12:49:36 -0700 Received: by fxm18 with SMTP id 18sf2114631fxm.16 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2010 12:49:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:from:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:to:references:message-id:x-mailer:x-provags-id :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=NDSpj560gWHBFm+3r4jDuBv2aJwGBkYqExHLWLKSbp4=; b=6HY/1alcWGR1LSr2fKBqd4ks5foTJa4FAefoxGOoknHsddgiWt+fu96kjQMzQGNVrX BKBvLULskfry+XwML3NJDGjgdg6EQOvlkQ2Kil50eVlhqHDlwPj1Zz3xxzsW13H9mTDC yY9Z/9wTNal3LK6zBBvNiwWZEToHFDeN/7/jU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:from:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to :to:references:message-id:x-mailer:x-provags-id:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=Q+mDCEaZNgLPDc9ZQ50rKT8U/azPtTTSJEujqncZaOGMX9WOcnJx083gHtumPjf1Vd nz5Av+7x4qR65Qr9+2JSipaiodn9hu4Kg2xVVfAf15g3jiZduliTHewdk9HKuDkHxQIa 2KsFASKr9DQjI46G7hJ2AYAsgWmkXYqoUooOA= Received: by 10.223.77.1 with SMTP id e1mr57886fak.33.1279741756000; Wed, 21 Jul 2010 12:49:16 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.152.197 with SMTP id h5ls4492102bkw.3.p; Wed, 21 Jul 2010 12:49:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.127.65 with SMTP id f1mr29907bks.17.1279741753798; Wed, 21 Jul 2010 12:49:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.127.65 with SMTP id f1mr29906bks.17.1279741753747; Wed, 21 Jul 2010 12:49:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.187]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id n18si5138811bkw.6.2010.07.21.12.49.13; Wed, 21 Jul 2010 12:49:13 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 212.227.126.187 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of cr@cosmicray.co.uk) client-ip=212.227.126.187; Received: from [192.168.1.102] (82-71-48-121.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk [82.71.48.121]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (node=mrbap0) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0MTePA-1OSpbL2vR2-00QnLs; Wed, 21 Jul 2010 21:49:12 +0200 From: CosmicRay Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Lojban Kids Show - names Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 20:49:10 +0100 In-Reply-To: To: lojban@googlegroups.com References: <3c4ace6b-a18e-4306-a2b1-8cef523e20f3@u36g2000prg.googlegroups.com> <10ef5a69-ef57-4fa5-86dc-a61f0b4178f6@q16g2000prf.googlegroups.com> <201007202235.57096.phma@phma.optus.nu> Message-Id: <481DD0B8-A96C-4952-8EF5-7F2E5B2CDF08@cosmicray.co.uk> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) X-Provags-ID: V02:K0:5aqH01jQI5+lKnl5j6khi9ygxAz5gNFtWf6rC+tcB4Q Nk0F02MJpiL4MQ6nE+6N8wmlFYPo94LrOs3OS+PM0u89OZh0hC JMtI+8jYUChFbVrGnFHB5dFTvLBdsHLfUVV+uXVJRYl/7T30fM EvKzS2i2Kgtawk8cpdGwHJ8zlr83owDZQ0sncaw2qARhfYf/L6 oCbxn0VVzLISE4eWEYrKom9CtRE4Qwk5y+F1rYsYWw= X-Original-Sender: cr@cosmicray.co.uk X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 212.227.126.187 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of cr@cosmicray.co.uk) smtp.mail=cr@cosmicray.co.uk Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-144-786840289 --Apple-Mail-144-786840289 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 21 Jul 2010, at 19:07, tijlan wrote: > On 21 July 2010 04:41, Lindar wrote: > > Where is Alpha from? Does Beta have any particular ethnic background, o= r is he > > a mutt? What is the ethnic background of the Lojban population? >=20 > Beta is a girl. > Alpha is not from anywhere in particular. I wanted it to be easily > dubbed into any language, and I didn't want the character to obviously > be of any ethnicity. >=20 > Is Alpha male? Scientifically speaking, at least for humans, it's more li= ke that female emerged before male: >=20 > http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=3D119799&page=3D1 > http://www.bbc.co.uk/bang/ask_yan/which_came_first_man_or_woman >=20 > It's also worth noting that the Y chromosome is a variation of the origin= al, basic, a-sexual chromosome called "autosome", while the X chromosome is= a direct successor to the autosome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y_chromos= ome#Origin). XY makes male, XX makes female. Then it's safe to say that, fo= r all species with the XY sex-determination system, female is closer to the= original neutral form, of which male is a derivative. >=20 > So I suggest Alpha be female. While some wonderfully interesting information, I don't see how this has an= y logical connection whatsoever to the gender of the main character. It's like saying, "chickens are hatched from eggs, therefore KFC shouldn't = sell chicken-based food products, they should only sell fried eggs!" Hmm, I wonder what an egg fried in the secret blend of herbs and spices wou= ld be like. I digress. My original thought was that the main character should be female too (anyon= e who knows me will know I'm fiercely pro gender equality), but after some = discussions on IRC we, at the time, decided that it would be easier to voic= e male characters due to the number of male Lojbanists, and that it would b= e easier for males and females to relate to a male lead than it would for b= oth males and females to relate to a female lead - at least in the target m= arket as we understand it. While on the subject of sexism, please don't take the temporary naming of A= lpha and Beta as denoting some kind of superior-inferior quasi-social-posit= ion of the characters in relation to each other - it's quite the opposite i= n fact, with Beta being a knowledgeable guiding light on Alpha's journey of= discovery. The temporary names are just to show who the story centres aro= und; primarily it's seen from Alpha's perspective - at other times Beta wil= l be carrying the plot. The genders are in my opinion, pretty irrelevant, = and the temporary names are for convenience and to add a slightly more huma= n touch, rather than continually saying "the boy" and "the girl". kozmikreis --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --Apple-Mail-144-786840289 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
On 21 Jul 2010, = at 19:07, tijlan wrote:

On 21 July 2010 04:41, Linda= r <lindarth= ebard@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Where is Alpha from? Does Beta have any particular e= thnic background, or is he
> a mutt? What is the ethnic background of the Lojban population?

Beta is a girl.
Alpha is not from anywhere in particular. I wanted it to be easily
dubbed into any language, and I didn't want the character to obviously
be of any ethnicity.

Is Alpha male? Scientifically= speaking, at least for humans, it's more like that female emerged before m= ale:

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=3D119799&page=3D= 1
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bang/ask_yan/which_came_first_man_or_woman

It's also worth noting that the Y chromosome is a variation of= the original, basic, a-sexual chromosome called "autosome", while the X ch= romosome is a direct successor to the autosome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y_chromosome= #Origin). XY makes male, XX makes female. Then it's safe to say that, = for all species with the XY sex-determination system, female is closer to t= he original neutral form, of which male is a derivative.

So I suggest Alpha be female.

While some= wonderfully interesting information, I don't see how this has any logical = connection whatsoever to the gender of the main character.

It's like saying, "chickens are hatched from eggs, therefore KFC s= houldn't sell chicken-based food products, they should only sell fried eggs= !"

Hmm, I wonder what an egg fried in the secret b= lend of herbs and spices would be like.  I digress.

My original thought was that the main character should be female too= (anyone who knows me will know I'm fiercely pro gender equality), but afte= r some discussions on IRC we, at the time, decided that it would be easier = to voice male characters due to the number of male Lojbanists, and that it = would be easier for males and females to relate to a male lead than it woul= d for both males and females to relate to a female lead - at least in the t= arget market as we understand it.

While on the sub= ject of sexism, please don't take the temporary naming of Alpha and Beta as= denoting some kind of superior-inferior quasi-social-position of the chara= cters in relation to each other - it's quite the opposite in fact, with Bet= a being a knowledgeable guiding light on Alpha's journey of discovery. &nbs= p;The temporary names are just to show who the story centres around; primar= ily it's seen from Alpha's perspective - at other times Beta will be carryi= ng the plot.  The genders are in my opinion, pretty irrelevant, and th= e temporary names are for convenience and to add a slightly more human touc= h, rather than continually saying "the boy" and "the girl".

<= /div>
kozmikreis

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