From lojban+bncCNf8pM-bDBCFqsLhBBoErk0RAQ@googlegroups.com Sun Jul 04 07:05:24 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OVPoe-0007c3-UU; Sun, 04 Jul 2010 07:05:23 -0700 Received: by gwj23 with SMTP id 23sf5776855gwj.16 for ; Sun, 04 Jul 2010 07:04:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received :sender:received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=QaBujOI5VW33PZ2Ns88UGrKHypAH/lq8MwTnEmUB7+M=; b=IlH78QczoxX9kd5vrbMi3UHLV6SVamMepgWErGd6pYZ7tdCt4bsou0Xo8aFXt+h0fR wEdrhKHAxof2Ib3NlMaCJNblTVM+bAJMyTaNLJos1PkhCv3VeRr1NWyS+eOfgdi2U17K vWDtyXQzLtZcv5+DSzir0Z0fOIl2IvDfNS52k= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=owQ3pxUn6hQWaWDfshvv6HNdSmS3lTaBDwk3M+7adg2Wx7QFo1cY/WeD4X0c0ewRU6 CYk8RQugSte0hY6l0wLgHQoJFMTwU7j/Oa3BZuV1tXPrRb6W6s5s2yeAf8fUEnJzYMRk a72NDu9IxA5mTFhlB+hrNkqfcwvlXSC9mE8VU= Received: by 10.101.179.34 with SMTP id g34mr147272anp.55.1278252293998; Sun, 04 Jul 2010 07:04:53 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.173.10 with SMTP id a10ls1256551anp.7.p; Sun, 04 Jul 2010 07:04:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.210.16 with SMTP id i16mr1380322ang.1.1278252293286; Sun, 04 Jul 2010 07:04:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.152.201 with SMTP id h9mr117299wbw.29.1278238428247; Sun, 04 Jul 2010 03:13:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.152.201 with SMTP id h9mr117298wbw.29.1278238428208; Sun, 04 Jul 2010 03:13:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f41.google.com (mail-ww0-f41.google.com [74.125.82.41]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id q13si3032663wbs.4.2010.07.04.03.13.47; Sun, 04 Jul 2010 03:13:47 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.41 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.41; Received: by wwb17 with SMTP id 17so476156wwb.4 for ; Sun, 04 Jul 2010 03:13:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.157.201 with SMTP id c9mr1618283wbx.20.1278238427082; Sun, 04 Jul 2010 03:13:47 -0700 (PDT) Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.86.201 with HTTP; Sun, 4 Jul 2010 03:13:47 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20100704002154.GB23879@digitalkingdom.org> References: <4C2F430F.4070003@perpetuum-immobile.de> <20100703170212.GZ23879@digitalkingdom.org> <4C2F8E31.3070909@perpetuum-immobile.de> <20100704002154.GB23879@digitalkingdom.org> Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 11:13:47 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Roleplaying in Cantr From: tijlan To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: paskios@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.41 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=paskios@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00163646cfae627124048a8d130f --00163646cfae627124048a8d130f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 4 July 2010 01:21, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > On Sat, Jul 03, 2010 at 09:33:40PM +0100, tijlan wrote: > > On 3 July 2010 20:23, Timo Paulssen > > wrote: > > > > > On 07/03/2010 07:02 PM, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > > > In Lojban, though, you'd do: > > > > > > > > .i do mo sei mi cisma > > > > > > > > which does not have that problem. > > > > > > > Honestly I always thought it'd be > > > > > > .i do mo sei cisma > > > > > > which I find most elegant. > > > > > > > But is it clear enough? My gut feeling is that {cisma} likes {do} > > as its x1. It could mean "What's up, you're smiling." > > I'd take it as "mi", since that's who's talking. But I've never > been good with sei. > I use {sei} to bring in a bridi that I would otherwise put in a {gi'e} or {ije} construct. For example, I might like reordering ko'a tatpi gi'e za'o dansu She is tired and keeps dancing. into sei tatpi ko'a za'o dansu Tired, she keeps dancing. But of course the official grammar does not formally restrict this {tatpi}'s x1 to the main bridi's x1 namely {ko'a}. And I think it's rightly so, because I also find it useful to be able to say sei cizra ko'a za'o dansu in lieu of ko'a za'o dansu .ije cizra , where {cizra}'s x1 is not necessarily {ko'a} itself. If I wanted to more detach {tatpi} from the rest of the sentence -- at least perceptually -- so as to allow more intuitional possibilities for its x1 in addition to {ko'a}, I might use {to}: to tatpi toi ko'a za'o dansu (Tired) She keeps dancing. I tend to feel the x1 of this more visually/sonically bracketed {tatpi} being more up in the air than that of the one in {sei ...} with its terminator ellided, thus potentially meaning "She is tired", "I'm tired", and so on, depending on the context beyond this very sentence. If the discursive element comes from a rather simpler emotion/attitude of the speaker themselves as in "How are you? (I smile.)", I might opt for just attitudinals like {zo'o} or {ui}. The same goes for "(I'm tired,) She keeps dancing", for which I might just say {a'enai ko'a za'o dansu}. -tijlan -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --00163646cfae627124048a8d130f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 4 July 2010 01:21, Robin Lee Powell <rlpowell@digita= lkingdom.org> wrote:
On Sat, Jul 03, 2010 at 09:33:40PM +0100,= tijlan wrote:
> On 3 July 2010 20:23, Timo Paulssen
> <timonator@perpe= tuum-immobile.de> wrote:
>
> > On 07/03/2010 07:02 PM, Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> > > In Lojban, though, you'd do:
> > >
> > > =A0 .i do mo sei mi cisma
> > >
> > > which does not have that problem.
> > >
> > Honestly I always thought it'd be
> >
> > =A0.i do mo sei cisma
> >
> > which I find most elegant.
> >
>
> But is it clear enough? My gut feeling is that {cisma} likes {do}
> as its x1. It could mean "What's up, you're smiling."= ;

I'd take it as "mi", since that's who's t= alking. =A0But I've never
been good with sei.

I use {sei} to bring in a brid= i that I would otherwise put in a {gi'e} or {ije} construct. For exampl= e, I might like reordering

=A0ko'a tatpi gi'e za'o dansu=
=A0She is tired and keeps dancing.

into

=A0sei tatpi ko'= a za'o dansu
=A0Tired, she keeps dancing.

But of course the o= fficial grammar does not formally restrict this {tatpi}'s x1 to the mai= n bridi's x1 namely {ko'a}. And I think it's rightly so, becaus= e I also find it useful to be able to say

=A0sei cizra ko'a za'o dansu

in lieu of

=A0ko'= ;a za'o dansu .ije cizra

, where {cizra}'s x1 is not necessa= rily {ko'a} itself.

If I wanted to more detach {tatpi} from the = rest of the sentence -- at least perceptually -- so as to allow more intuit= ional possibilities for its x1 in addition to {ko'a}, I might use {to}:=

=A0to tatpi toi ko'a za'o dansu
=A0(Tired) She keeps dancing= .

I tend to feel the x1 of this more visually/sonically bracketed {t= atpi} being more up in the air than that of the one in {sei ...} with its t= erminator ellided, thus potentially meaning "She is tired", "= ;I'm tired", and so on, depending on the context beyond this very = sentence.

If the discursive element comes from a rather simpler emotion/attitude = of the speaker themselves as in "How are you? (I smile.)", I migh= t opt for just attitudinals like {zo'o} or {ui}. The same goes for &quo= t;(I'm tired,) She keeps dancing", for which I might just say {a&#= 39;enai ko'a za'o dansu}.

-tijlan

--
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