From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhCF0J3iBBoEyCwjlg@googlegroups.com Wed Jul 21 14:35:21 2010 Received: from mail-px0-f189.google.com ([209.85.212.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Obgwe-0005RG-IH; Wed, 21 Jul 2010 14:35:20 -0700 Received: by pxi13 with SMTP id 13sf1243980pxi.16 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2010 14:35:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=PWXmaZ390WNG1CPj2atKB6eo6Yix48LEL4D88jWCmzA=; b=KmiF7r5gN5Vi122fh4+5v504yFblSoJfjqwBTZoXP/z/s4cyDvk3S6WFpaUjrt9jWv +2R9CXKQCoX8a0dFLSo8OU9sIASC2H6OBvuWsP3ElSnI8bxhSVy1+6XKX3IB0DA3W2ol 9kPv7omCqv+mm+6Yg0fhs9jJcXA3PRukdMs54= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=nH630jNsJ1g52tG1z04TkGFI8tsD1zQs7bufDBnLGO6YYfIOt0xJET+Au8NWRr9Ryv 4fnbYrvLxQhADdMABfarLMETBbZsbHKc6mpVD3bk+ey1ua+4HCQ7OBANjvHk2lAn5/85 abS87dZB+Rqxl25dfRFFqlTHjTyHaNmkx0taE= Received: by 10.142.121.35 with SMTP id t35mr90006wfc.25.1279748101478; Wed, 21 Jul 2010 14:35:01 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.248.40 with SMTP id v40ls14136621wfh.1.p; Wed, 21 Jul 2010 14:35:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.185.7 with SMTP id i7mr191107wff.7.1279748100652; Wed, 21 Jul 2010 14:35:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.185.7 with SMTP id i7mr191106wff.7.1279748100540; Wed, 21 Jul 2010 14:35:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pv0-f174.google.com (mail-pv0-f174.google.com [74.125.83.174]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id j18si7421757wan.1.2010.07.21.14.34.59; Wed, 21 Jul 2010 14:34:59 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.174 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.83.174; Received: by pvc7 with SMTP id 7so3382782pvc.33 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2010 14:34:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.223.14 with SMTP id v14mr933263wfg.275.1279748098278; Wed, 21 Jul 2010 14:34:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.144.17 with HTTP; Wed, 21 Jul 2010 14:34:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <3c4ace6b-a18e-4306-a2b1-8cef523e20f3@u36g2000prg.googlegroups.com> <0ea116b6-80d3-498e-a6c8-80377826906f@z34g2000pro.googlegroups.com> <201007190010.57987.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4C440884.5080805@perpetuum-immobile.de> <400dfd08-0c4b-435b-8fbd-533e4ec73b51@y12g2000prb.googlegroups.com> <9BA17869-14E1-4D59-B9F3-89D9D09DD66D@cosmicray.co.uk> <2d997da9-6b4d-425e-b3eb-7b6796e45439@b4g2000pra.googlegroups.com> <8F3F3CEA-830C-4E2A-9586-21F255443167@cosmicray.co.uk> <10ef5a69-ef57-4fa5-86dc-a61f0b4178f6@q16g2000prf.googlegroups.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 15:34:58 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Lojban Kids Show - internet stuff From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.174 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd2579accc4cd048bec92e2 --000e0cd2579accc4cd048bec92e2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 3:28 PM, CosmicRay wrote: > On 20 Jul 2010, at 22:47, Jonathan Jones wrote: > > What time period is this whole thing happening? > > > I'd like it to be contemporary. > > If it's sufficiently far enough in the future, it's easy to justify a much > quicker trip than a week. Technological advances could easily account for a > trip that would currently take as much as a week being much shorter. > > Also, in looking up the Lagrange points, I found thisinformation. Based on it, IMO L1 is a really bad location for the station, > due to being in continuous eclipse of the sun relative to Earth, > > > That wouldn't be noticeable from Earth, it's not like it would cast a > coherent shadow that far out, and even if it did, it would sweep across the > Earth's surface as fast as the Earth rotates - nobody would notice it. > > L2 is just as bad as the station would then be in eternal night due to the > sun being eclipsed by the sun > > > L2's already discounted due to that. > > L3 is on the other side of Earth's orbit > > > L3 is a possibility with some relay stations between it and Earth. > > , and L1-L3 are very unstable locations, requiring frequent velocity > corrections to maintain position. > > The above assumes that we are talking about the Earth-Sun Lagrange points, > and not the Earth-Moon ones, which are much closer, as EM L3, L4, and L5 are > all ~ the distance to the Moon. > > In any case, my suggestion is: > > 1) Place lojgugde at EML4 or EML5. These three locations are close to the > Earth, and have the lowest need for orbital correction, making either the > optimal (IMO) location for a station. > > 2) With rocket science circa 1960's, EML4 and EML5 are three days away. > Either technology has advanced enough that the trip is much shorter, the > trip is edited to remove things like sleeping, or only the arrival (last 4 > hours or so) is shown. > > > Some good points, here's what I personally like and dislike about the > Earth-Sun Lagrangian point locations. > > L1 Pros: > Closest to Earth, only 5.1ish seconds for Earth-Lojgugde comms > Great place to hide the station in "plain sight" > Relatively debris-free > In the story, the solar panels in the sea around the Lojgugde Earth station > double up as a Very Large Array radio telescope. They point at the Sun > during the day for their solar energy collecting mode, and don't have to > change orientation to check on Lojgugde in their telescope mode. At night > they can orient in various directions to scan the outer reaches of the solar > system for incoming potential dangers to Lojgugde. They may, however, each > have to be able to physically change shape into a parabolic dish with a > pop-up feedhorn to switch mode. Still, I think the idea's cool. > > L1 Cons: > Unstable, most energy to maintain position > Doesn't get the best view of the cosmos vs L2 (we could put a science > observation station at L2 that doesn't rely on solar energy, nuclear fusion > perhaps?) > > L4/L5 Pros: > Stable gravity bowl, least energy to maintain position > Gravity bowl allows for asteroids to be kept near the station during mining > > L4/L5 Cons: > Distant from Earth, around 8 minutes for Earth-Lojgugde comms > Gravity bowl means potentially plenty of random debris, might be a recipe > for disaster > Location might attract more attention from Earth-based scientists, be > easier to spot with standard 'scopes, and generally less secret if Lojgugde > is to be hidden from the masses > > Anyone want to add to those before a decision for the show is finalised? > What is the benefit of lojgugde, the destination of the lead character, who is a visiting Terran, being secret from Terrans? > > kozmikreis > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --000e0cd2579accc4cd048bec92e2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 3:28 PM, CosmicRay <cr@cosmicray.co.uk> wrote:

That wouldn't be noticeable from Earth, it= 9;s not like it would cast a coherent shadow that far out, and even if it d= id, it would sweep across the Earth's surface as fast as the Earth rota= tes - nobody would notice it.

L2 is just as bad as the st= ation would then be in eternal night due to the sun being eclipsed by the s= un

L2's already discounted due to= that.

L3 is on the other side of = Earth's orbit

L3 is a possibility= with some relay stations between it and Earth.

=
, and L1-L3 are very unstable locations, requiring frequent velocity correc= tions to maintain position.

The above assumes that we are talking about the Earth-Sun Lagrange poin= ts, and not the Earth-Moon ones, which are much closer, as EM L3, L4, and L= 5 are all ~ the distance to the Moon.

In any case, my suggestion is:=

1) Place lojgugde at EML4 or EML5. These three locations are close to t= he Earth, and have the lowest need for orbital correction, making either th= e optimal (IMO) location for a station.

2) With rocket science circa= 1960's, EML4 and EML5 are three days away. Either technology has advan= ced enough that the trip is much shorter, the trip is edited to remove thin= gs like sleeping, or only the arrival (last 4 hours or so) is shown.


Some good points, here's wha= t I personally like and dislike about the Earth-Sun Lagrangian point locati= ons.

L1 Pros:
Closest to Earth, only 5.1ish s= econds for Earth-Lojgugde comms
Great place to hide the station in "plain sight"
R= elatively debris-free
In the story, the solar panels in the sea a= round the Lojgugde Earth station double up as a Very Large Array radio tele= scope. =A0They point at the Sun during the day for their solar energy colle= cting mode, and don't have to change orientation to check on Lojgugde i= n their telescope mode. =A0At night they can orient in various directions t= o scan the outer reaches of the solar system for incoming potential dangers= to Lojgugde. =A0They may, however, each have to be able to physically chan= ge shape into a parabolic dish with a pop-up feedhorn to switch mode. =A0St= ill, I think the idea's cool.

L1 Cons:
Unstable, most energy to maintain po= sition
Doesn't get the best view of the cosmos vs L2 (we coul= d put a science observation station at L2 that doesn't rely on solar en= ergy, nuclear fusion perhaps?)

L4/L5 Pros:
Stable gravity bowl, least energy= to maintain position
Gravity bowl allows for asteroids to be kep= t near the station during mining

L4/L5 Cons:
Distant from Earth, around 8 minutes for=A0Earth-Lojgugde comms
<= div>Gravity bowl means potentially plenty of random debris, might be a reci= pe for disaster
Location might attract more attention from Earth-= based scientists, be easier to spot with standard 'scopes, and generall= y less secret if Lojgugde is to be hidden from the masses

Anyone want to add to those before a decision for the s= how is finalised?

What is the benefit of l= ojgugde, the destination of the lead character, who is a visiting Terran, b= eing secret from Terrans?

kozmikreis
=

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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu
=

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