From lojban+bncCNf8pM-bDBDYi9LhBBoEFw4otQ@googlegroups.com Wed Jul 07 06:49:42 2010 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OWV0B-0007A1-R8; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 06:49:40 -0700 Received: by yxd39 with SMTP id 39sf5131766yxd.16 for ; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 06:49:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received :sender:received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=UQCrKxnr72bM+U1ONJq6SiP3OuPSkOt8vpzoC+Z+p08=; b=mIj1t8NDywF/mECNOt3jdkg6ZioLUbg644NLf2V9cFdFXThzWG7aNvpFZH9lQoWm+D meU+qpulIbiWEELwgpOW43NM7fOuOBwBSiekFtQ4ZvgMN6iYQQGkST1ipqyfco9t6TWs +G+iaGgggucwhQ6lC4hapi9FM1wA4yb9V8zZc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=xR1nJ4Siy7QLIA+n43EcPEWTs5wrYTTGxccGr9hiH3VDt43b9rsUSTd2tRaQ/2b49v 34CsjDNwDw9k6KqNRzlB5FuhiZ0ePmkLeL0QeXVhDimvbwG+xa6U/T4psp/PEAZlyCkP T8y4J1+rJLnolCIcPTmlRuBcagtIOwyqBJyLA= Received: by 10.100.235.38 with SMTP id i38mr603154anh.47.1278510552644; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 06:49:12 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.200.2 with SMTP id c2ls8155747anq.4.p; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 06:49:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.49.29 with SMTP id w29mr5137014anw.23.1278510551347; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 06:49:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.234.95 with SMTP id r73mr75514weq.5.1278500546760; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 04:02:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.234.95 with SMTP id r73mr75513weq.5.1278500546718; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 04:02:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f170.google.com (mail-wy0-f170.google.com [74.125.82.170]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id m11si261063wej.7.2010.07.07.04.02.25; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 04:02:25 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.170 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.170; Received: by mail-wy0-f170.google.com with SMTP id 36so2788637wyb.15 for ; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 04:02:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.81.195 with SMTP id m45mr773274wee.23.1278500545530; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 04:02:25 -0700 (PDT) Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.86.211 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Jul 2010 04:02:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <201007062254.33578.phma@phma.optus.nu> References: <201006271620.06248.phma@phma.optus.nu> <201007062254.33578.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 12:02:25 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] relative clause in a name From: tijlan To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: paskios@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.170 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=paskios@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6dd9935dc8d82048aca1a63 --0016e6dd9935dc8d82048aca1a63 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 7 July 2010 03:54, Pierre Abbat wrote: > On Sunday 27 June 2010 18:46:16 tijlan wrote: > > I can think of two principles to consider. One is translational fidelity. > > If the non-Lojbanic source text is left-branching (dependents precede a > > head), it would benefit from "la poi ma'azva .karabax." than "la karabax. > > poi ma'azva" in terms of accuracy. The other one is flow of information > as > > a literary device. You decide which structure is cognitively more > effective > > in communicating the idea in question. > > Which would you say for that particular name? In case you didn't recognize > it, > Russian "nagorny" means "on the mountain". > The word is adjective (rather than a prepositional phrase or a relative clause), so we could simply have "la ma'azva .karabax." with respect to the new cmevla rule. Otherwise (i.e. traditionally), I would say "la poi ma'azva .karabax." (I have at times used this form to translate English names like "President Obama" or "Queen Elizabeth" as well). I could be wrong but I think Russian permits the adjective after the noun, i.e. Karabax nagornyj. So "la .karabax. poi ma'azva" may still be in accordance with the Russian grammar if not the conventional word order of the name in question. Side note: In some languages including English, the "nagornyj" is transcribed rather than translated. I wouldn't do that in Lojban. The landlocked region now has [ti'e] at least two other official names in Armenian and Azerbaijani with their own, unrelated words for the "nagornyj" part, after the Soviet Union era. I think the meaning-based "ma'azva" would live more up to Lojban's neutrality standard. tijlan -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0016e6dd9935dc8d82048aca1a63 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 7 July 2010 03:54, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu&g= t; wrote:
On Sunday 27 June 2010 18:46:16 tijlan wrote:
> I can think of two principles to consider. One is translational fideli= ty.
> If the non-Lojbanic source text is left-branching (dependents precede = a
> head), it would benefit from "la poi ma'azva .karabax." = than "la karabax.
> poi ma'azva" in terms of accuracy. The other one is flow of i= nformation as
> a literary device. You decide which structure is cognitively more effe= ctive
> in communicating the idea in question.

Which would you say for that particular name? In case you didn't = recognize it,
Russian "nagorny" means "on the mountain".

=A0The word is adjective (rather than a prepositional phrase o= r a relative clause), so we could simply have "la ma'azva .karabax= ." with respect to the new cmevla rule. Otherwise (i.e. traditionally)= , I would say "la poi ma'azva .karabax." (I have at times use= d this form to translate English names like "President Obama" or = "Queen Elizabeth" as well).

I could be wrong but I think Russian permits the adjective after the no= un, i.e. Karabax nagornyj. So "la .karabax. poi ma'azva" may = still be in accordance with the Russian grammar if not the conventional wor= d order of the name in question.

Side note:
In some languages including English, the "nagornyj&q= uot; is transcribed rather than translated. I wouldn't do that in Lojba= n. The landlocked region now has [ti'e] at least two other official nam= es in Armenian and Azerbaijani with their own, unrelated words for the &quo= t;nagornyj" part, after the Soviet Union era. I think the meaning-base= d "ma'azva" would live more up to Lojban's neutrality sta= ndard.

tijlan

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