From lojban+bncCK30vq5WENarzOIEGgSyMFaj@googlegroups.com Fri Jul 30 11:11:58 2010 Received: from mail-pz0-f61.google.com ([209.85.210.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Oeu3j-0000EY-QV; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 11:11:58 -0700 Received: by pzk26 with SMTP id 26sf402536pzk.16 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 11:11:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:date:from:to:subject :message-id:mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:in-reply-to :user-agent:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-disposition; bh=7K4YZJ4jw9+SJOH3GH/pr4YJQGPLSao/6sxfd3cKbEY=; b=sByK5xBi4yKXGXE3GhwJsKH9bXQlzd4xq6s6/bxBAMdsd/SgJnrH3xiKHBBR59T/3p nJidwl5sbpJ/wsIVAIYvMqH7M+FltYYLOdraFXCFiarJLrCBtSqcIEfP8+1dYI9hAmXB VYcouo4bwGR2QYjqyUX6nIkxMfjv2+mAeRcic= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id :mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-disposition; b=bj7GanG3FJCdmXoR9xMRYAWlPwy4GMkZg2jMz0VKzM+ZRbwi3dmk4xRa3AfMkAyvy9 yPBtaBfYk1zhDWW80mTX/r6sN/u5JjGe7QnsE6YTUDDAfQ2/lGUPpA7Q7aYYM7bvqmz9 uQlPlvbZdzd6wprtMwjTjSaoILrN6KSL+P6NM= Received: by 10.142.150.18 with SMTP id x18mr237235wfd.22.1280513494761; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 11:11:34 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.143.87.7 with SMTP id p7ls666537wfl.2.p; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 11:11:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.147.7 with SMTP id u7mr432040wfd.30.1280513493382; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 11:11:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.147.7 with SMTP id u7mr432038wfd.30.1280513493340; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 11:11:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org (chain.digitalkingdom.org [64.81.66.169]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id h18si3359330wfg.2.2010.07.30.11.11.33; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 11:11:33 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of nobody@digitalkingdom.org designates 64.81.66.169 as permitted sender) client-ip=64.81.66.169; Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Oeu3P-0000Dv-DR for lojban@googlegroups.com; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 11:11:32 -0700 Received: from rlpowell by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Oeu3O-0000Dg-Ty for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 30 Jul 2010 11:11:31 -0700 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 11:11:30 -0700 From: Robin Lee Powell To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: General Commentary On Lojban Community Work (was Re: [lojban] Semi-technical help needed: New CLL diffs.) Message-ID: <20100730181130.GS4511@digitalkingdom.org> Mail-Followup-To: lojban-list@lojban.org References: <20100611173115.GM7321@digitalkingdom.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20100611173115.GM7321@digitalkingdom.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-Original-Sender: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of nobody@digitalkingdom.org designates 64.81.66.169 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=nobody@digitalkingdom.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline As far as I know, nothing has happened with this. I may be missing vast activity under the surface, in which case I apologize in advance. On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 10:31:16AM -0700, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > http://github.com/dag is the repo for the new CLL, all prettified > and broken up and stuff, that a few different people made. > > The goal/plan is as follows: > > 1. Turn this into a set of content diffs (not formatting diffs); > that is, a complete list of everything that is a change to *content* > in the CLL. > > 2. Give said list to me/the BPFK for approval. > > 3. Turn the thing into DocBook, if it isn't already. > > 4. Make it official: post it on the main site at least, and at some > point in the near future start publishing it via Lightning Source. > > I need someone to do step 1. > > I call this semi-technical because you need to at least understand > git, and knowing how to do scripted text processing is probably > important. > > Remo was going to do this, but ey's disappeared. Here's what happened from my point of view, ignoring my initial crappy response, on this new CLL thing: 1. A bunch of people put in a bunch of work creating the new online CLL version. This included me providing access to the master soft copy of the print CLL. 2. It became clear that people wanted to use this version as a basis for any new print CLL that might be made. 3. I pointed out that in its current form it wasn't of any actual use for that purpose. I talked to the people involved. They, primarily Remo, agreed to modify it as specified above. 4. Shortly thereafter, Remo *totally disappeared*. No-one has heard from em in months. None of the other people involved in that discussion have done anything. 5. I asked the community to help. This was met with much enthusiasm. 6. Nothing actually happened. So, I guess I'm going to have to find the time for this. Some day. *AGAIN*. While I'm at it, I've seen no changes to the BPFK stuff in about 2 months, except the ones I have made. So I guess I'm single-handedly stuck with that too. *AGAIN*. There has been a pattern lately of me refusing to support the pet project of every random newbie that shows up on IRC (usually a website redesign), and then getting yelled at for being cranky and unsupportive. I always say that people should just do the project themselves, and if they're still around and supporting it in six months, I'll be as supportive as they want me to be. So far, to my knowledge, no such conversation has *ever* resulted in this actually happening. I just wanted to point out that this (the CLL work) is the perfect example of the standard pattern that leads me to be dismissive of everyone's "Oh, I just found Lojban! I'm going to fix everything! I'm going to make X! It's going to be awesome!". Here's the pattern: 1. People go and do a bunch of work without bothering to actually ask what the community needs. 2. I point out what the community actually needs relative to what they did; this entails a great deal more work. 3. Shortly thereafter, the person disappears forever, but by this time the community has gotten used to using whatever they made. 4. I start getting requests for maintenance/fixes of whatever it is. This has happened so many times I've totally lost count. Sometimes (*very* rarely, I can only think of one example) the person doesn't disappear, they just stop supporting whatever it is. I still end up with people bugging *me* to fix/maintain it. I'm very, very tired of this. I'm also having a rough time in my personal life lately. I would like nothing more than to see other members of the Lojban community actually stand up and get shit done over a time period lasting longer than, say, a month. But mostly I'm writing this so I can stick it on the web and point newbies at it when they whine about how obstructionist I'm being. I am not, and have never been, obstructionist of anything (except legally bad things like copyright violation). If you want to do something awesome, great: go make it. Host it yourself. Find out what the community wants first. If, in six months, you're still around and happily supporting it, I'll put it wherever you and the community want in shared Lojban space, even right at http://www.lojban.org/ (as a side comment, this is exactly how I became webmaster of the Lojban community in the first place). Until then, please show some respect to the people (me and 2 or 3 others) who have been carrying this project across the backs (well, littered corpses really, given all the disappearances) of people like you for the last three decades (although for me it's only been one). Thanks. -Robin -- http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false" is "na nei". My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.